Why did Bernard Hopkins duck James Toney for nearly 20 years?

Instead of McCallum and Griffin it could have been Hopkins and Toney for Jones. If Hopkins doesn't turn it down and Toney gets the decision over Griffin in their rematch.

 

Once again, you've made some great points, and it's always a pleasure debating with you.

My take on it, is that he shrunk himself down to the MW division, to have a run in a prestigious division, where the competition wasn't as great as SMW and LHW. Now if you don't agree with that, I honestly have no issue whatsoever. But that's my honest opinion.

Before he fought Roy, he had 18 fights over the MW limit. He turned pro in 1988 at 23, and he didn't have a fight at/or under the MW limit, until 18 months into his career in 1990, in his 6th fight. And it was only after he fought Roy, that he had back to back fights at MW limit. So in my opinion, he made a decision after his defeat to Roy, that he was going to continue his career as a MW. And in order for that to happen, he had to dedicate his whole life to the cause, where he literally had to measure his food etc.

He was never realistically going to fight Calzaghe and Ottke. They were both unknown to the U.S. public. But while he was fighting guys like Richie, Hall and Wynn, he could have been in the mix with the likes of Toney, Nunn and Liles etc.

I don't want to be disrespectful to any of his opponents, but up until the late 90's/early 00's, he didn't really fight any very good-great fighters.

According to various reports in 2002, he turned down $6m to fight Roy in a rematch, at a catchweight of 169 pounds. After which he spent over a year out of the ring until he fought Hakkar. That speaks volumes to me.

After he'd won the MW tournament, he could have been in the mix with the likes of Roy, Dariusz M, Montell Griffin, Reggie Johnson and Antonio Tarver, instead of fighting the likes of Hakkar, Allen and Daniels.

You can say he was a high risk/low reward type fighter for many years, but he'd have been ranked, and sooner or later he'd have been in a mandatory position.

He's a hell of a character. The guy's unique. I don't think that anybody else could have made the sacrifices that he made, in order to have had a MW run for 12 years. But again, in my honest opinion, he did that because it was a relatively weak division for the majority of his reign. I don't think he wanted the biggest fights out there.

I've just been looking at some of the ratings by The Ring, during his reign, and it makes interesting reading:


http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1994

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1995

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1996

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1997

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1998

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1999

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2000

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2001

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2002


I won't list them all, but you get the point.

I don't think it was a coincidence that he only moved to LHW, after Roy's career as a top fighter was over, and the division had died down somewhat.

His 20 defences of his MW crown may have made history and looked great on paper, but again, apart from the huge sacrifices he made outside of the ring, I think he took the easy option. However, I have to give him enormous credit for who he's fought in the latter part of his career. You've got to respect him for fighting the likes of Tarver, Dawson, Calzaghe and Kovalev etc, into his 40's-50's. That was great. But if he was willing to fight those guys in his 40's-50's, it would have been great to see him try and fight the likes of Roy, Toney, Nunn, Liles, Hill, Dariusz M and Tarver etc, in his 30's.


Great debate.


:good

 

Pretty much my feelings on the matter although he deserves a lot of credit for the fights he went for after moving up.

Do I think the guy diving out of the ring against Robert Allen would have been keen to lace em up with a middleweight Toney? I don't think so but who knows?

 

I agree.

He's really pushed himself in the last 10 years, fighting the likes of Calzaghe, Dawson and Kovalev etc. And he deserves an enormous amount of respect. But he didn't seem interested in taking those types of challenges when he was younger.

Maybe he had everything to lose and nothing to gain, but it's been vice versa for him in his latter years? I don't know, but he's had a great career.


:good

 

Hopkins wasn't in his prime when he fought Jones Jr. Toney was long gone from middle when Hopkins came into his own.

 

Hopkins middleweight opposition wasn't star studded, but was above average. Compare it to Golovkin's opposition now, and it looks like The Golden Era of boxing.

 

Yeah, right? Who's physical prime is at 28? People don't hit their prime until their 40s.

 

Jones Jr wasn't at his peak either, both were having their first title shot. While Hopkins did improve more after this fight than Jones Jr did, I think the fact Hopkins was green in this fight gets over emphasized.