Why did dominant super tall heavyweights only emerge relatively recently?

Those guys had success in basketball far before boxing.
Wilt was an athletic freak, even by today's standards. And there were others like him in the league at that time.

Since 1961, the average height of NBA players increased by just one inch.
This is an interesting analysis on the size increase of NBA players over time: https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

 

Interesting article.

I think it's one thing to be 6ft 5ins+, mobile, explosive and have stamina, like a lot of basketball players. It's another thing to be all of those things when you're also 240lbs+.

Lewis, Wlad, Bowe, Joshua and arguably others from the post PED era are all of those things (perhaps not stamina for AJ). How many boxers were pre-PEDs?

 

I’m bigger then my Pa- my skeleton, head size shoulder width etc ,but I am shorter by about an inch. I’m probably an outlier here- maybe I just didn’t sleep enough? I suffered a lot of insomnia growing up. Anyways.

 

Well best fighter today is Usyk. As far as big men go they r only the best because cruiser weights have a division now. The combination of strength speed and stamina I think r better overall. Than the fat talent less lards in the hw division.

I felt like puking watching Whyte v Fury…two talentless hacks. More talent shown in amateur bouts. And this passes as HW talent today.

 

Big men only the best because of the CW division? What boxers that were active in the CW division during Lewis's and Wlad's reigns would you have favoured to beat them?

Other than Uysk, which fighter currently or recently active at CW, would you favour over Fury, AJ, Wilder or Joyce?

 

Yes, but this does not mean that PEDs need be the cause of these things.
Sometimes they are, but we do not even know if the 4 you mentioned dabble in PEDs, used them often-or not at all.
There are many reasons, most already presented, who there are more of ANY group.
Population size. International recruitment greatly increasing the talent pool. Marginal increase of average height. Weight training-& the science behind it-becoming much more common. The stigma or bias against it leaving in boxing.

Edit: a lot of B-Ball players overlap with the SHW types in terms of height & weight-& are mobile, explosive & have stamina.
Zion WIlliamson is one, & even when not a bit overweight he weighs somewhat more than the others named-meaning he had more muscle.
Of course that does not tell us if some B-ball players got there with PEDs-there is an overlap-a very small % of folks can get there naturally.
But a very small % of men (.1!) are even the average NBA height, 6'7".

Bowe also was no more than 235 when most fit, he lost some of the agility & endurance when like 246 rematching Holyfield.
Also Joshua got down to the mid 230's for greater stamina, shedding some fat & muscle.

 

Though some clearly don’t understand/comprehend the scientific whys and wherefores, of course there would be a limit to optimal size, all relevant losses and gains, pros and cons accounted for. as it relates to the concept of and requirements for the actual sport in question: boxing,

Note, when we consider the chances of a super-sized HW vs potentially real or hypothesized opponents who are notably smaller - the imagined go to tactics are often if not always: leaning, holding, pushing, shoving etc. - as much to allow the bigger fighter to tire and stifle his smaller opponent as it is to allow the bigger fighter to protect and rest himself also.

While there might be a measure of tolerance for and allowance of such tactics in boxing, the usage increases with greater size and/or size advantages. It has caused an even greater drift from the concept of pure, open, clean and energetic boxing matches.

 

You're correct we don't know those fighters I quoted use PEDs.
I have zero inside knowledge, but I personally suspect all/most top fighters do -

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My point was that in the first c.80 years of gloved boxing there wasn't a single elite 6ft 5ins+, mobile, athletic, fast, explosive, fit fighter, whereas there have been multiple, arguably several, in the past c.40 years. I'm just speculating, and I accept it is just speculation, that this coinciding with PEDs becoming common place and/or advancements in legal sports science, is linked.

 

In regards to the first question in Lewis era we had two cruiser weight fellows (one even LHW) get Heavyweight gold. If u count alphabet titles even more.
Lewis and Wlad were exceptional talents and deserved the reigns they got. But they also lost to smaller fighters respectfully. So I wouldn’t dismiss cruisers at all against them.
Joyce n Wilder are both extremely unaccomplished in the hw division. Hardly worth mentioning w the other two.
I don’t pay enough attention to modern cruisers to be able to give u an honest answer there. I just know the combination of power, speed, endurance is much better and more optimal at that reasonable weight. Usyk is gonna beat Fury imo.

 

You said that big men are only the best because there is a CW division now. The only logical conclusion to draw from your statement is that when Lewis and Wlad, for example, were the best HWs in the world, there were fighters active at CW who would be favoured to beat them. I strongly disagree with this. For example, the best CWs during the period that Wlad was the best HW in the world, were Mormeck and Haye. He fought and beat both easily.

You can find the best 190-200lbs fighters more entertaining to watch than the best 240lbs+ fighters. You can even think that the best 190-200lbs fighters in history would beat the best 240lbs+ fighters in history, I'd disagree with you, but I couldn't prove you wrong. But categorically, with the possible exception of Fury when Usyk was at CW (I make Fury a slight favourite), when the best HW in the world has been 240lbs+, there hasn't been an active CW that would be favoured to beat them.

So, the creation of the CW division demonstrably has nothing to do with the big men being the best HWs in the world (possibly excluding Fury when Usyk was active at CW, and lets hope we find out soon).

 

OK, you admit you have no idea what the reality is.
Neither do I-but I do not believe the most rational conclusion is all or even most do.
Nor to preclude this possibility.

You have very sensible & well thought out posts.
The evidence of how common PED usage is, from frequent to dabbling, is not there.
As you know correlation does not equal correlation, & the increase in athletic big men can easily be largely explained by many demographic exposure to sports expansion, population, technical & training advances.

It is just as untoward to assume that nobody not caught uses as almost everyone does.
Just as irrational to assume all improvements are from natural sources as that most depend upon PEDs.

Some sports have higher rates of cheating-based upon perceived & real advantages, testing, the culture & history of some like the Tour de France...

Tyson Fury did not directly admit PED usage there, but clearly logically he is included in his unsupported belief.
But there is no evidence presented-I wonder how Tim Withespoon feels about this?
Fury also has a history of being irrational about some things-& bigoted.
It also serves the Ego & public image of drug cheats to claim everyone does it; makes you look better & implies you did not have such an unfair advantage & hopefully you look more legitimate/less illegitimate...

Including in your own eyes.

 

I agree completely that the bigger men are overwhelmingly favored to win in direct combat.
However I do not understand why you say the CW division was not created because guys that size would not win.
If as we agree the best folks tend to be bigger-at least in an absolute sense, & under modern rules...

And recalling the logic of it historically, why do you not agree CW was created to give men who were @ the size of historical HWs until the last several decades more opportunity?
Which always seemed reasonable to me to do...

Also CWs can weigh near or over 220 lbs. at fight time (10% rehydration common, sometimes more).
Imagine IF it was really a max of 200 on fight night-that would be even harder vs. all comers.

I really hope Usyk wins.
A great guy, fighting for a great nation & cause.
Incredible work ethic, including in 350 + fights.
Great boxing intelligence, even if not my favorite style.

And I have no idea who will win.
BUT if Fury is allowed to be at least somewhat of a clinchaholic (sic), &/or yanking Usyk down often...
He may well get an unearned victory.

 

I think you have either misread or misunderstood my post.

Gazelle said that the only reason big guys are the best HWs is because the CW division was created. I.e. he thinks there were fighters competing in the CW division at the times Lewis and the Klitschko's were the best HWs in the world, who would have been the best HWs in the world, if it weren't for the creation of the CW division. I was stating that this is clearly wrong.

 

Ah thanks that is consistent with what you said + I understand.
You heard my take, Whaddya Thunk about Fury vs. Usyk?

 

It wasn't my intention to hijack this thread into a debate on whether PEDs are widely used or not, so I'll summarise my thoughts and then agree to disagree.

The lineal HW champion has been 6ft 5ins+ for c.98% of the past quarter of a century, compared to c.5 % of history prior to that.

I don't think that is explicable purely by PEDs. I've speculated that, allied with legal advancements in sports science and nutrition, it may be a contributing factor, for the reasons I've given. I think that is plausible, as are possible contributing factors offered by others in this thread.

I strongly suspect PEDs are/have been commonly used at elite level in boxing in the modern era. No problem if you disagree.