Why did Evander Holyfield have a better heavyweight career in heavyweight

You know I hate PEDs & the usage of them to transform his body must be counted against Holyfield.
Also the evidence is overwhelming he used-we do not always need a test to confirm things when there are other proofs, as the Balco investigation showed with him & many others such as Barry Bonds.
And Big Mac & Sosa, even without tests...

No excusing Ben Johnson in the slightest I agree.
Still yet no evidence Hopyfield used drugs before he went up to HW.
And he must get some credit for what he did after despite that without PEDs he would not have accomplished as much.
Heart, skills, work rate strategies etc...

 

It should be noted that IMO Evander would've lost to "that" version of Tyson as well.............Also, Spinks was never really a HW, had never really dedicated his life to it like Evander did. He only fought what 4/5 times at the weight 2 against Holmes. He already had a full career as well and more mileage, Evander moved up earlier in his career. There's a number of reasons why their careers looked nothing alike at HW

 

@Saintpat I'm not trying to defend Ben Johnson but 6 out of the 8 athletes in that final were caught using steroids at some point in their career.

I believe Carl Lewis failed a test just a month before the Olympics but it was swept under the carpet.

I honestly think they made Ben Johnson a scapegoat, why wasn't any of Carl Lewis's medals taken from him ? He failed 3 tests before Olympics just a month prior.

 

I don’t know about Carl Lewis but they don’t strip Olympic medals afaik for failed tests outside the Olympics.

I actually knew Calvin Smith, who was once the world record holder in the 100 meters and was one of the two who did not test positive in the finals in Seoul. And I’m pretty sure he never failed a test in his life.

As for Ben Johnson, he failed his test at the Olympics. The poster who brought it up tried to make him sound virtuous by saying he admitted his drug use … but he first denied it and then only admitted it later after it was 100% clear he was caught red-handed (and yellow-eyed, like some character from a horror movie) and the proof was irrefutable. It’s like admitting you stole a cookie from the cookie jar when your mom shows you surveillance video of you taking one, lol.

But Ben, he was far from done. He sat out his suspension, returned to competition … and failed another test. Then he appealed and was allowed to compete while that was sorted … and failed yet again for a different substance.

When Ben finally competed in a race steroid-free (against no competitors, as no one would race against him since he was a thrice-disgraced drug cheat), he finished 100 meters in 11 seconds … a good time for a high-class high school runner. His best finish in a race ever before he started using steroids was third place in a world meet for high schoolers … so he was a somewhat gifted but far from world class runner who just took more gear than anyone probably in history and reaped rewards til he got caught.

Later in life, Johnson became a personal coach for a son of Muammar Gaddafi, the terrorist and Libyan dictator, who was an aspiring pro soccer player … and that kid tested positive for steroids.

As I noted, there’s little question that Evander took steroids as a heavyweight. There’s also no suggestion that he took them before, so he was world-class at cruiserweight without them. And he never tested positive, so he wasn’t, it would seem, ‘roided to the gills like Ben was when he was at his peak. And there’s no clear evidence of exactly when or for how long Holyfield took them — one could suppose he did it from start to finish of the heavyweight portion of his career … or one could suppose he messed around with them for a time but not for every fight.

Impossible to know exactly how much PED benefits there were in Evander’s case, but with Johnson there is clear and compelling evidence that he was never an Olympic-class sprinter without steroids; and his failed tests time and time and time again (as well as one of his pupils testing positive when he got out of active competition and pimped himself out as a ‘coach’ who was obviously really a steroid supplier) make it clear he was an absolute filthy cheater for his entire life in athletics.

 

Did Ben Johnson actually return to running ? I didn't know that.

But yeah there is no excuse Ben Johnson knew was he was doing, no one forced him to do it. Hes a grown ass man and you live with the decisions you make.

 

What it amounts to is Holyfield on steroids vs. other heavyweights on steroids. Lewis-Holyfield 2 is amazing in a way.

And Holyfield-Tyson 2 is interesting because they both came in so much "improved" from their 1st fight. That was much closer to what a fight in '91 may have looked like. Of course Holyfield would have won then too.

He always beats Tyson, going back to when he slapped Tyson around at the '84 Olympic tryouts (although steroids were probably rampant in the '84 Olympics also). That's why he couldn't wait to get Tyson in the ring in '89-'90.. he already bossed Tyson around in '84 and then had to listen to how great Tyson was in '88. There you go.

 

Maybe Holyfield always beats Tyson, but I never was convinced of that.
Tyson was still a teenager in 1984.
Tyson was much declined when they finally fought.
Holyfield's effort was superb, although without steroids there is no indication he would have had the strength to handle Tyson that well.

As far as assuming all HWs use PEDs-that is an extreme, untenable, unfair conclusion.
We really do not know even how common it was-dabbling or using heavily.
Lewis showed no suspicious weight or muscle gain, neither did Tyson, nor any specific nevidence they ever likely used.

Anyone COULD do anything. We could both be secret axe murderers, or tax cheats...
But pointing out say so many men who are over or under a short or tall height is not akin to saying most are under/over that range.
Anecdotes mean nothing in terms of statistical evidence-or being fair & reasonable.

 

Peds was necessary to balance his low weight and heart issues. Without massive Peds use he beat Bowe and was the first to Kd'd him. Besides he ducked none and he was 4 times WC. Its enough imo.

 

People will believe what they want to believe.

Holyfield never tested positive and his name isn’t Evan Fields, so there’s no substantial evidence (even though it’s likely he did use).

Tyson, however, has failed at least one drug test for a banned substance and has admitted to using a fake dick to cheat drug tests. But because he says it was only for recreational drugs (sure, believe the guy with the fake dick) those who don’t want to believe he’d ever use PEDs choose to believe the guy who lied on the stand in his own **** trial (he told two conflicting stories under oath, hence one of them had to be a lie … ergo he lied under oath).

Personally, I believe Tyson did use post-prison. There were reports/accounts that his weight was down to 190 or so when he was released and yet a few months later he was a ripped 220 vs. Peter McNeeley.

What we all know is that Evander beat Mike Tyson like a rented mule when they did fight. That much is not in dispute. However they got to wherever they got, when they stepped into the ring Evander was the better fighter.

 

I've been accused-sometimes fairly-of being naive.
I chide folks for making unfair & untoward conclusions.
But it is quite substantive that a thorough investigation of BALCO revealed a client who had comically similar name & address information as Holyfield-& he picked up the call when "Evan Fields" was called.
Thus it is *extremely* likely he used the HGH & steroids he is accused of.
It is highly unlikely that BALCO or anyone framed him.

If it was just his weight gain I would not find the level & rate conclusive.
The sudden onset baldness & "heart problems"? I would find that suggestive.
BALCO makes it all but definite.

People by definition believe what they want: but not everyone is highly or necessarily at all biased.
Tyson's lack of honesty & honor on some matters ony shows he is not at all likely to be above cheating on PEDs for moral reasons.
It no more shows he used than embezzlement proves someone mugs people or vice versa.

I am not familiar with the contrary stories you allege on his ra*e trial. CLearly you think that the cause of the lie is that he was guilty as charged. Does not show he is likely to have used...

The prison weight loss & gain? I have heard that before, but never any sources or specifics on it.
Show me something concrete that is likely to be honest & accurate re: improbably muscle gain, I'll join you in believei ng he used at least then.
If so, it would still not taint what he achieved at his peak.

Briefly, Tyson has unusual c apacity to gain muscle, & it is well-established that muscle memory means if you built to a certain level, you can reacquire that bulk much faster.
Basically twice as rapidly as when you first added it.
But IF it was 30 lbs. of

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in very few months I would agree that this is artifiscal. Show me the evidence please.

That Holyfield was better when they fough was never in dispute.
However without the headbutt in the second fight, I cannot tell what have happened.
Also the fairly liberal amount of clinching allowed-Tyson was still a Force of Nature then.
But Evander built impressive strength & had a near perfect strategy & was way more efficient in how he fought-within the rules, I have no cause to believe the head butt was intentional then.

 

The point of him lying under oath in his trail is to say it’s kind of ridiculous to believe him when he says the fake dick he used to pass drug tests was just for smoking pot.

Anyone who believes a guy who uses a fake dick to cheat drug tests, especially one who lied under oath at a trial, will believe anything.

It impeaches his credibility (although using a fake dick to cheat drug tests ought to be enough to make someone not credible).

As we both said, people will believe what they want to believe and some want to believe Tyson never used steroids so him admitting to cheating drug tests isn’t going to change their minds.

 

But we gotta ask ourseives if we are the ones who believe what we want-again technically that is true, but often folks are between largely & entirely rational.
Many like me have no psychological problems believing Tyson used-but do not see the evidence as there.
I do not think it at all absurd to believe that he may well have just used pot-or other non-enhancing (or counter-productive) drugs, IF that would result in large penalties or disqualifying him from competition.

I am not believing him on everything or necessarily about PEDs: I am saying he may well never have used-for a variety of reasons you likely know all about- so never needed to lie.
OR the opposite-often it is wisest to withhold judgement.

But I remain very open to the very specific evidence of what he weighed when to evaluate whether it is likely he could gain muscle weight that fast.
Although remember that Tyson could put on muscle faster than all but a tiny % of humans-especially since muscle memory allows it to come back more quickly.

 

no one else ever went out and banged with Tyson like this

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Because size is extremely overrated in boxing past a certain point. Skill is more important over all. Hence the smaller guys being champion for decades.