Why did Frazier fight Foreman twice?

I can only imagine the beating the furious gypsy king would put on frazier

 

If Ali was afraid of losing to Foreman he wouldn't have fought him in the first place.

Why would Ali be scared of rematching a guy he thoroughly beat once before and a guy who had now developed major mental/confidence issues.

This is nearly as bad as Khan fans who claim Garcia is ducking a rematch.

 

Just like the beating he put on on Saturday night?

 

Frazier had just lost to Ali in Manila. Foreman had just bombed Lyle. They were the top two contenders. I think Frazier figured if he beat George he'd have another shot at Ali. The fight had kind of the feel of an eliminator.

But of course Ali knew damn well that he'd never fight either of them again.

 

:huh Uh, you do realize George was the HW Champion, right? How many contenders in boxing history ducked the defending champion w/out challenging him at least once? SRL with his first retirement rather than taking on Hagler?

 

The Foreman rematch would have been a bigger and richer fight than most of Ali's title fights after Zaire. Foreman was much more deserving than Wepner, Dunn, Coopman and all the other journeymen who got a shot at Ali in that period. If Ali and his team were as certain of victory as you think, makes you wonder why they didn't take the fight.

 

Ali was always quite explicit about the importance of building up fights during his interviews. The briefest interval between rematches he had were Liston I & II, Norton I & II (which he obviously didn't need to build up the rematch at all for), Frazier II and Manila (which he really did have to work to build up after Joe's shellacking in losing the title to Foreman), and Leon Spinks I & II (a rematch like Norton II where he could afford to keep his mouth shut and just concentrate on training for).

George blew it like Gerry after Holmes by not getting back on the horse promptly. He was off from October 30, 1974 to January 1, 1976 when Ron Lyle was seen by a national audience on ABC knocking him silly with individual punches. Then, a completely shot Frazier lasted over twice as long as he did their first time around, doing enough to suggest Ali was completely under his skin and had his number. (Joe actually stayed on his feet longer than any opponent Foreman stopped between Peralta II and Young. His chin wasn't steel, but his jaw wasn't glass either.)

Meanwhile, Shavers was demonstrating stamina and guts against Henry Clark and Tiger Williams. Earnie had the more impressive 1976 campaign when it came to demonstrating both punching power against the never floored Clark and Williams, as well as stamina and late round power twice over the ten round limit needed to show he could credibly challenge Ali. Foreman was not extended past five rounds between his losses in Kinshasa and San Juan.

I don't think Ali gave George a rematch for the same reason Holmes didn't give Gerry one. They didn't get back into action fast enough, both showed themselves to have been emotionally damaged by their first defeats, then failed to demonstrate the qualities of stamina necessary to win over a longer distance. (Who the hell was ever going to stop Ali inside of five rounds? How the hell was Foreman going to decision a much faster opponent with longer arms and straighter punches?)

Dino Denis can also take some of the blame for this, I think. If he'd boxed smartly over the long haul and George had taken him out in say, eight or nine rounds, maybe he secures the shot Shavers got.

Who were the last three opponents of Ali's who were officially counted out? Bob Foster, George Foreman and Jean-Pierre Coopman. (I will mention here though that Wepner would not have beaten the count of Tony Perez if Perez had not waved it off at seven.) After Dunn and Coopman, Foreman was the third fastest win Ali had in world title competition during the 1970's. If he had beaten a slow count by Zack Clayton, then come out for round nine, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Muhammad actually did give title shot rematches to the two opponents who had previously defeated him. He also gave a rematch to an opponent in Bugner who he respected and had previously extended him 12 rounds. His most controversial challenger prior to the match taking place was easily Evangelista, coming off an eight round points loss to Zanon. (Leon's decision win over the 27-0-0 Righetti seemed a reasonable enough qualifier on paper after his dismal draw against LeDoux, although it shows nothing of how Leon upset Ali.)

 

Anubis, you're another Ali excuse maker. George was far too threatening an opponent for Muhammad to consider in his smoke-and-mirrors second reign.

 

Foreman did nothing after their first fight to scare him, he was getting his price up.

 

Why did Foreman have to jump through hoops and prove this, that and the other to earn a title shot when it's apparent that most of Ali's opponents after Zaire did no such thing? What had Evangelista, Wepner, Coopman and Dunn proven? So Shavers beating two journeymen was more impressive than Foreman KO'ing Lyle (who knocked out Shavers the year before) and Frazier? Right. I'm amazed anyone would try to justify 6-0-1 Leon Spinks getting a title shot based on beating... Alfio Righetti?

 

Many people felt Ali ducked him. Ali probably should have been criticized more for this, they wondered if he could have beat Foreman without the loose ropes.

Also, there is no way Foreman would have fought that stupid and punched himself out again in a rematch with Ali. But I'm not sure Foreman could have beaten him honestly. The man's chin seemed unbreakable, and I don't see Foreman getting a decision on him either.

 

There was no outcry claiming that Muhammad Ali was ducking George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali had soundly and thoroughly thrashed George Foreman in Zaire. Foreman was building a case for a rematch at the time he was defeated by Jimmy Young. After losing to Ali Foreman took over a year off before fighting in a non exhibition against Ron Lyle.

During Foreman's return to fighting Ali defeated Jimmy Young and Ken Norton while also collecting a couple of additional paydays. Muhammad Ali did not duck anyone.

 

Money.

 

This is entirely correct.

Ali was the first real fighting champion since Charles in terms of getting the title out there and giving fans rounds of him putting it on display. Nice change from having it out for a couple rounds a couple times a year or less.

Norton was the man everybody wanted to see Ali defend against, the guy who broke his jaw. Then, Frazier turned back the clock by upsetting JQ in their rematch with a dominant performance, but Ali still had to really pump up their Manila rubber match before the fact. Regardless of the outcome of Smoke-JQ II, many expected Ali would finish what he started at the end of round two of his 12 rounder with Joe and conclude matters by the mid rounds.

Coopman wasn't objected to much, as it was felt Ali was entitled to an easy one after Manila. He fooled around for a few rounds with some hip rolls, did his fifth round dispatch, and fans didn't feel they'd peed off ticket money on 90 seconds of blowout.

Leon Spinks was an Olympic hero. Like Ron Lyle, Chuck Wepner and Earnie Shavers (a nice family man with his beloved seven daughters) there was a human interest angle there (Earnie's power was not expected to be a difference maker after Ali's history of dealing with other huge sluggers), but it was expected Leon would be an easy decision win.

By far the loudest outcry during Ali's second reign did not concern any question of ducking, but how the hell Evangelista came off an eight round points loss to Zanon to get a shot at Muhammad. At least Alfredo was the European Champion and had won over the championship distance by the time he challenged Holmes in Larry's first title defense.

Ali told Don Dunphy while kneeling on one knee in the ring after winning Manila that he wanted Norton and Foreman before quitting, so even then he expressed a willingness to rematch George, but Foreman screwed matters up for himself and didn't hold up his end of the offered opportunity. That he was an unpopular champion didn't help much.

Yes, George blew out Ken in Caracas, but Norton not only got right back on the horse just three months later with Kirkman, he was in the ring with Boone a full four months before Kinshasa. Kenny was media friendly, active with a three to four fight a year pace, you could usually count on seeing him in action for a few rounds (a principle well understood by Tommy Burns, who often carried challengers he could have blown out for the spectators in attendance), and good humored after blowing out Bobick when reminded about his loss to Foreman, cheerfully joking, "Hey, at least I made it to round two!" Norton was also no Ronda Rousey in hiding after the Pooney debacle swan song, providing interviews the following day saying he was all right, and also through.

Ken Norton didn't make excuses for his bad stoppage losses, but took em like a man. Less than five months after Shavers, he was back in there pitching against LeDoux in Scott's Bloomington, and while nearly stopped at the end, he did get robbed of a hometown draw after dominating the first several rounds until a thumb in the eye. (Karma's a you-know-what. Holmes showed LeDoux in front of those same fans what it was like to be on the receiving end of one of those thumbs.) Cookie Wallace was about two months after Kenny got knocked out by Garcia. Norton handled his knockout defeats better than Foreman handled his wins.

Larry Holmes was great, but he was also largely the heavyweight champion of Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas (which drove me nuts). Many great heavyweight champions of yore were champions of Madison Square Garden.

With Muhammad Ali, fans learned more about world geography than geography majors in college. He brought the "Spanning the globe" slogan of ABC's Wide World of Sports to heavyweight boxing while boxing still mattered in North America. Competed in over a dozen nations around the world which are represented in Olympic competition, while never ignoring the traditional as well as future North American meccas like MSG and Las Vegas either. The most celebrated and famous man in the world will never again be a boxer.

 

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