why did Larry Holmes never once try and unify?

Pity there was no heavyweight HBO tournament to enforce the governing bodies to unify titles in place at that time isn’t it?

So much easier in 1985 when they had it in place then. It suited Tyson. Came in handy.

 

Larry could have got it happening if he wanted given the standing he held. The whole unification thing isn't something i'd push in this tho it's just the missing fights over titles. Sure a Holmes-Thomas fight would have technically been a unification but it would have been for a title Larry might never have given up.

There was only two heavyweight titles when Holmes dropped the WRC crown so it hardly would have been a tournament - it would have been one fight. The IBF still may have gifted him their title anyway.

 

Larry Holmes' Number 1 contenders, per Ring magazine (FWIW):

April 1980 - September 1982: Mike Weaver*
October 1982 - August 1983: Michael Dokes
September 1983 - September 1984: Gerrie Coetzee
October 1984 - September 1985: Pinklon Thomas

These dates are "as of" dates, not issue cover dates. Yes, Dokes rose to #1 before his first Weaver fight.
*Mike Weaver was #8 when Holmes fought him.

 

That’s good research. Damn shame it wasn’t a unified title. Otherwise those fights would have had to happen.

what I want to know is Did These contenders rise to #1 in the Ring magazine because they had the WBA belt?

I wonder if the series of fights between Tate,coetze,Weaver and Dokes could have resulted in as high a rating without the WBA belt?

when contenders fought each other without belts in the 1980s I’m not sure they shot so high in the Ring ratings. Do you know if Berbick rose any higher beating Page or if Snipes rose any higher beating Berbick?

I do think Coetzee was #1 worthy knocking out Leon Spinks in 1979. That was a sensational win.

 

Absolutely, a real shocker when it happened. People were slobbering for a fight against Holmes even then.

 

Thanks!

I think, generally speaking, the WBA champ was always Ring's #1 contender at heavyweight. They did, however, move Dokes into the #1 spot before he beat Weaver. Weaver was so inactive in those days, though it wasn't necessarily his fault. And Dokes was out for nine months before the Weaver fight, yet they still switched places in the rankings.

Ring didn't recognize Holmes as champ until March 31, 1980 when previous victim Weaver beat Tate. In 1978 Holmes was Spinks' #3, behind Ali and Norton, until he beat Norton and rose to #2 behind Ali. After Ali-Spinks II Holmes rose to #1. Ring recognized Ali as champ until July 1979, when Ring's title became vacant. Holmes was #1 and Coetzee was #2 for a few months, then Tate rose to #2 after beating Coetzee. Coetzee was #3 for a few months, until March 1980 when it was Holmes - Tate - Weaver - Coetzee - Shavers - Leroy Jones. So Weaver was pretty well regarded going into the Tate upset. In the next issue Ring recognized Holmes as champ with Weaver #1, Tate #2, Coetzee #3, and Dokes #4. So Ring continued to rank Tate, Coetzee, and Dokes highly in 1980.

Re: Berbick-Page. Going in to the June 1982 fight, Ring's ratings read Weaver-Dokes-Cooney-Page-Coetzee-Berbick-Tillis. Afterward it was Weaver-Dokes-Berbick-Page-Coetzee-Cooney-Tillis. So Berbick jumped, but Ring thought very highly of Dokes and kept him at #2 behind Weaver until later in the year.

Re: Snipes-Berbick. Immediately afterward, in the December issue (ratings dated as of October 18, 1982), Ring's ratings read Dokes-Weaver-Coetzee-Snipes-Berbick-Page-Cooney. Of course Dokes didn't beat Weaver until December. But those top five or six guys played round robin for a while. Edit: Snipes was #10 going in against #3 Berbick.

I love looking at old rankings and seeing where guys were rated at a given time. Hindsight is 20/20 because we can only evaluate careers and a fighter's greatness a few years down the line when the career is over. Going in, things can look very different. Going in, undefeated upstart Tim Witherspoon was #10 against Holmes. Several months later undefeated upstart Marvis Frazier was also #10 against Holmes. As a comparison, Leroy Jones was effectively Holmes' #5 contender. Yet history tells us that Witherspoon gave Holmes far more trouble than Frazier (or Jones) and had a far better career. But we didn't know that would be the case in 1983.

Some people will say that this proves that ratings are BS. But I find them interesting and that they provide historical context.

 

Yes I think it is important to look at it in the unforeseen sense. How it must have looked at the time is important. How it pans out often distorts thing.

As you say Witherspoon went on to a better career than Marvis Frazier but he had no better credentials than Joe’s boy going in against Larry..yet the WBC soon deemed Tim worthy of a match with page to replace Larry.

 

That’s an excellent breakdown. Thanks for the info. I sensed Coetzee would have been high for the Spinks win. That was an automatic title shot performance in any other era. But there was no unified champion to challenge. I still don’t believe a vacant WBA title fight needed taking place without Larry included.

 

Thanks!

 

It doesn’t look like Ring Magazine rated Page that highly around the time the WBC were forcing him on Larry as their mandatory.

 

Or, as late Auburn football coach Pat Dye once noted: Hindsight is 50/50.

 

You'll try anything. Page went Snipes after Snipes beat Berbick in the actual eliminator to fight Holmes as his mandatory. Page then leapfrogged Snipes (obvious to most) and Berbick as well i believe. Not sure if he punted past Coetzee. So yes they did rate him quite highly. Critical thinking is your friend.

 

Does anyone else see Page's prime as somewhat underwhelming? He had a lot of terrific tools, but he (like so many of the 80s heavy contenders) lost too many fights he should have won, and almost never seemed 100% peak condition. I could be wrong on that last.

 

From July 82 to May 83 Page was #6 (#7 once).

From June 83 to September 83 Page was #3, behind Dokes and Weaver.

From October 83 to March 84 Page was #2. Going into the Witherspoon-Page fight, Witherspoon was #5, behind #4 Pinklon Thomas and #3 Michael Dokes. Coetzee was #1, of course.

So Page was up there.

 

I think his best year was 1981 when he had impressive wins over Stan Ward, Marty Monroe, Alfredo Evangelista, and Scott LeDoux, as well as a less than impressive win over George Chaplin.

82 and 83 weren't bad, except the Berbick bout. But the bright spark seemed to be a little less bright. He did do enough right things to rise to #2 in Ring and become Holmes' WBC mandatory.

After that he really slipped, losing, as you say, bouts he should have won. Yeah, he won the WBA belt, but he only held it for five months. He became a journeyman at 26.