Why did Louis go down against Galento, Baer, Braddock, and Walcott?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, Jan 8, 2019.



  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    I agree that even great fighters have technical lapses and make mistakes that they sometimes end up paying for.

    Dropping your left is obviously far more dangerous (and reckless) in some instances than others. It’s all situational. You can do it all night long if you’re in against someone who’s not long enough or fast enough or in position to counter effectively. It’s a lot less smart to do against an elite power-punching counterpuncher who has his weight on his back foot and his right had ****ed and ready to fire.

    It was an excellently executed counter but Louis left quite a window for him, just like he did in the first knockdown on the ropes.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's where i am at. From defending leaning back to a sudden explosion and the transfer of weight was perfection. One of the great counters. Louis did well to get up.
     
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  3. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Pretty sure that punch doesn’t land flush (not sure Walcott even bothers throwing it) if Louis brings his left back home after throwing his jab. I don’t see whats undefensible about it. It was an opportunistic punch thrown to take advantage of a glaring technical flaw.

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    Definitely a superb counterpunch though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Good thread and discussion btw Kevin.

    Part of why i say it it was almost indefensible is that Walcott could just have easily turned over an uppercut if Louis had been trying to get that left hand back to his cheek. The perfect timing of Walcott's move allowed him to throw basically anything. The perfect short direct snapping right he landed, an uppercut, or he could have easily swept around with it too. If Louis had been getting his left back Walcott would have been looking for the uppercut and he was in perfect position if he needed it.

    Even when great technicians like McCallum and Toney get together they get countered. It's a continual battle of anticipation, timing and variety. Both (Toney maybe more often) throw that Walcott type counter among others. Toney throws it both straight and as an uppercut and caught McCallum with it at times after his left glove had come back to a good position which leads us further on.

    You see in fights like this how important anticipation and reflexes are as well. They know you can't defend against everything simply with good basics and guard. You will often see punches being thrown with a defensive moves mixed in as well in anticipation of the expected counter. You will also see guys picking off the counter even tho say their left hand is too low simply because they see it coming and adjust either by raising the glove to parry or moving their head.

    At around 1.39s in my Holmes clip you see Larry throw a jab cross combo with Tim looking to counter with the right hand. Holmes see's it coming and swiftly ducks to his left to evade. His left glove wasn't overly in a bad position but he makes sure he gets out of there.

    Coming back to Walcott - Louis. Janitor brought up a pertinent point. Louis was well past his best. His reflexes and timing had seen far better days. Walcott actually beats him to the punch by a margin while Louis is in between punches. There is no guarantee Walcott beats peak Louis to the punch like this. Again tho it was one helluva move aided by Louis' age and having had 2 fights in 3 years. In this space of time Walcott had 19 fights to Louis' 3.

    I will readily agree Louis had a real tendency to get lazy with that left, absolutely. I would temper that by saying i think it was a lot harder to take advantage of it at his peak tho and Walcott is one of the greatest heavyweight counter punchers we ever saw. Have a look at his famous counter against Ezzard Charles. Walcott had that ability to counter even great fighters perfectly. Also notable is that Louis took some very big punches from Walcott when he was well past peak and came back.

    Sorry, got a bit long there.
     
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  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What snipping tool do you prefer Kev? I'm assuming you save from youtube then use a snipper before uploading.
     
  6. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Against Walcott, Louis got too deep into the well. It was a footwork and positioning issue not an issue of his left being up. Even a full guard with his left and he would have been rocked.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    You can actually past the youtube link right into streamable . com (only takes a few seconds to sign up for a free account), and then adjust to get the start and end times you want.

    I use the ClipGrab app to save fights off youtube that I want to watch offline.
     
  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hey thanks Kev. It will certainly help in chats like this and will be a great tool.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Walcott did this multiple times to Louis sometimes even at range and was always on the lookout for it. Here he walks him onto another right hand bomb and this time it is at range. Louis' lazy hanging jab is undeniably the fault here. The previous counter was brilliant in it's timing and had a very very small window to be deployed. The one i have presented shows poor technique and pretty poor reactions too. Again i reckon he would get much harder to counter at his peak. Later on in the fight he started to subtly slip some counters and even countered the counter at times.

    It gets back to my point about Louis being faded, old and rusty. He does not react to Walcott's right hand at all and is belted.

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  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Who ever would have thought my first ever clip would have been a Louis kd.

    Thanks Kevin it was quite simple.
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here we see Joe sitting on the counter and firing back.

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  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And here we see Louis adapting defensively to the threat -

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  13. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Some very good observations being exhibited here.

    For my two-penneth's worth, the highlights of the early rounds, for the most part, show Walcott gauging the Louis jab for his own counter-right-hand, over the top and/or round (outside) Louis' left. In these early highlights I don’t think we see Walcott attempt a counter, when he senses the Louis right-hand is not too far behind the Louis left; rather, he retreats a little to recreate the distance and the off-setting angle that Walcott likes to maintain.

    However, in the fourth, at the point just before the KD, he does just the opposite. I think he engineers the opportunity by offering Louis a clear target. Then, instead of backing off, he dips to his right and plants his feet; very slightly pivots anti-clockwise (effectively taking Louis out of position), which facilitates his position and the angle for him to bring his right-hand punch, inside.

    I think a lot of credit has to be given to Walcott for this KD.
     
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  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sweet post man. Walcott is one helluva technician.

    Louis made adjustments in the rematch. Here he is thwarting Walcott's attempt to counter over the left again. It's becoming eminently clear that in the previous kd Kev put up Walcott set the trap and timed Louis to perfection. If he had crossed with the right again in my clip below as he did in Kev's clip he would have in all likelihood been caught on the button and dropped again. Louis was on the lookout and making great adjustments.

    In post 56 of mine i believe we see an identical scenario to Kev's earlier kd clip but without Louis throwing the right behind the lazy left. If he had thrown the right behind his left he would have been caught in a mirror image of Kev's earleir example as he would have again been transferring his weight straight into Walcott's right hand and shortening the punch up in the process. He wasn't hurt as badly as he was in the first fight.

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  15. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Oh - Yes - Louis holding back on launching the right hand there, gives him the option to use evasive, upper-body movement, which prevents a solid connection from Walcott. The alternative, I think, presents a very strong possibility of him getting tagged flush and dropped, as you suggest. I really need to watch the rematch again.
     
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