Why did Marciano Choose to defend against Charles than Valdez ?

yea too bad they didn't give him3 defenses instead of 2 but probably tax reasons because Rocky always maintained condition.

I think Johnson would have made it interesting for a few rounds, I think Johnson also beat Doug Jones, I got to check but you are right he would have earned a huge $$$ payday fighting Marciano for the Big title

 

I didn't feel sheepish, I fought my corner in good faith ,was proven wrong by whomever and admitted it by making a thread entitled," I Was Wrong".

 

Here's all I could find on boxrec. Very weird. We know there was no Charles/Johnson rematch, and Johnson ultimatley challenged Moore again.


Promoter Herman Taylor stated before the fight that the [url]International Boxing Club[/url] promised the winner of the fight the next shot at the heavyweight title.
The contract had a clause that gave Charles the right to a rematch within 60 days and the right to choose the site. Charles' co-managers, Tom Tannas and Jake Mintz, said they wanted the return bout in either Pittsburgh or Milwaukee. Johnson's manager, Tommy Loughrey, confirmed there was a rematch clause but said they were leaning towards a world title fight with either heavyweight champ [url]Rocky Marciano[/url] or light heavyweight champ [url]Archie Moore[/url].
Post Fight Comments

• "I really thought I won. I didn't think it was a hard fight. I gave him the first two rounds and one other." -Ezzard Charles

• "I'll knock out Charles next time and then challenge the [url]Marciano-LaStarza[/url] winner." - Harold Johnson

 

If Marciano had fought Valdez instead of the more highly ranked Ezzard Charles, there would be people here criticising him for that.

The only difference, is that in that case the criticism would be justified.

 

Ha Ha your right

 

:deal

 

Here is what happened ... long post.

Before Marciano’s rematch with Walcott, the top three contenders were Jersey Joe, Ezzard Charles and Roland La Starza … in that order.

After Marciano stopped Walcott in fight two, Weill said that he was considering Charles or La Starza for Marciano next. I.B.C. President Jim Norris left the choice up to Weill. Both La Starza and Charles sent the Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission $5,000 and filed official challenges. Both were accepted.

Then, on June 9, 1953, the Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission chairman asked that Charles and La Starza fight in an eliminator to determine who should get the fight with Marciano. That was being considered when Nino Valdes outboxed the number-one contender Charles and won a 10-round decision. The referee scored it for Valdes 7-2-1 in rounds. The other two judges had it for Valdes 5-3-2.

After Charles’ loss, Marciano signed to defend against La Starza. After stopping La Starza, the National Boxing Association said there was “no logical contender” for Marciano to face. (Instead of mandatories, the N.B.A. used to name “logical” contenders and that person was considered the person the champ should fight.)

In no particular order, the N.B.A. also named Dan Bucceroni, Nino Valdes and Ezzard Charles as “outstanding” contenders (meaning they were more acceptable challengers than anyone else). The inclusion of Charles was odd because Charles had just lost back-to-back fights to Valdes and Harold Johnson. But Charles was one of the first fighters to sign with the I.B.C. and he was a former world champ, so that apparently was keeping him in the picture.

On Oct. 22, 1953, Rocky Marciano told The New York Times that Al Weill and the I.B.C. were looking at Rocky defending against Dan Bucceroni. Marciano told The Times that Nino Valdes, Harold Johnson, Ezzard Charles and Earl Walls were also being considered, but “Bucceroni appeared to have the inside track.”

In November, Valdes knocked out top-10 contender and European champion Heinz Neuhaus in four rounds. In December, Ezzard Charles knocked out Coley Wallace, who was rated #10 in the world, to get back in the win column. Charles followed that up with a surprising second-round knockout of Bob Satterfield in January.

Then, in March 1954, Bucceroni fought young pro Tommy “Hurricane” Jackson and was brutally beaten and stopped in six rounds. That loss ended Bucceroni's title bid.

The same month, Valdes took on James J. Parker. The fight community was really excited about the Valdes-Parker fight, because they were two of the biggest heavyweights around at the time. But their fight turned into a boring jab-and-clinch fest. Valdes won a clear unanimous decision, but the fans booed because they wanted the two “giants” to do something dramatic. And, well, they didn’t. (Sort of like when people expected Tyson and Bonecrusher to destroy each other, and nothing happened.)

In the next ratings, Charles was rated #1 and Valdes #2.

Weill announced that Marciano would face Charles next in June.

In May, Valdes flew to Belgium and stopped longtime contender and former European champ Karely Sys. Sys hadn’t been stopped in more than 130 pro fights. When Sys told the ref he’d had enough with a few seconds to go in the fourth, people were shocked. Valdes was given a huge ovation as he left the ring.

Also in May, “Hurricane” Jackson shocked the world again when he stopped Charley Norkus. After stopping Bucceroni, Jackson had lost a surprising decision to Jimmy Slade. But just when he was about to be seen as a flash-in-the-pan, Jackson beat Norkus and the New York press dubbed him the next big rising star of the division. Also, his wins over Bucceroni and Norkus earned Jackson a #5 rating.

So Valdes (#2) and Jackson (#5) signed to fight in July.

In June, just before Marciano and Charles fought the first time, I.B.C. President Jim Norris said Marciano’s next defense (Norris, like all, assumed Rocky would beat Charles easily) would be in September against either Valdes or Jackson.

So ... Marciano and Charles fought. It was a close, brutal fight. Marciano won by scores of 8-5-2, 8-6-1 and 9-5-1. Charles was the first guy to go the distance with Rocky in Marciano’s four title fights. A rematch seemed like a natural. to ensure he got it, Charles requested that the N.B.A. name him the “logical” contender for Marciano’s title.

On July 5, the N.B.A. said they were refusing Charles’ request. But they did post their ratings and in them Charles remained at #1 (despite his loss to Marciano), with Valdes still at #2 and Don ****ell at #3.

Two weeks later, #2-rated Valdes destroyed #5-rated Jackson in two rounds.

So, Weill had a choice. Rocky could fight Valdes or they could stage a rematch with Charles. I.B.C. president Norris preferred Valdes. He thought the fight between Marciano and Valdes would make a fortune in Miami. Weill chose Charles.

Leading up to the rematch, there were several reports stating that Marciano didn’t look good in sparring. One sparring partner in particular, “Big” Gil Newkirk, rocked Marciano with a long right hand that had Rocky stumbling backwards into the ropes. Newkirk remained in camp, and the champ and Newkirk surprised reporters by going to war for several days.

In September, on the day of the rematch between Marciano and Charles, a rainstorm cancelled the outdoor fight. It was rescheduled for the following day, but was rained out again. On the third night, Rocky and Ezzard finally fought. Marciano looked better in the early rounds than he had in their first meeting. Then he suffered the split nose, was told he had one more round or the fight would be stopped, and Rocky knocked out Charles in eight.

In October, Valdes was rated the #1 contender. The N.B.A. also named Valdes the “logical” contender for Marciano’s title. I.B.C. president Norris also told reporters he was going to meet with Al Weill because he wanted Marciano to fight Valdes in February.

Weill wouldn’t meet with Norris, though. He said Marciano’s nose was too damaged to schedule any fights.

In December and January, Valdes scored a couple of easy knockouts over non-contenders to keep busy.

In January, Norris called for a meeting with Weill, again. He wanted Weill to commit to fighting someone - either Valdes, ****ell or Charley Norkus. Again, Weill wouldn’t commit. The N.B.A. continued to list Valdes as Marciano's only logical contender.

In February, Weill invited the press to watch a sparring session featuring Marciano wearing over-sized headgear. The reporters found it kind of ridiculous. Weill said he needed to protect Marciano’s nose, which wasn’t quite healed. But the reporters thought Marciano looked fine.

Two weeks after the sparring session, Weill called ****ell’s manager and invited them to come to the States. After ****ell arrived, Weill announced that Marciano would fight ****ell in May.

At the time, The New York Times’ Arthur Daly wrote that ****ell was picked because Weill seemed afraid by Marciano’s close call against Charles and he wanted a soft touch. He said he thought Weill was afraid of losing control of the heavyweight championship.

Daly didn’t think Weill had anything to worry about, but that was the impression he had.

Marciano’s tough sparring before the Charles rematch with “Big” Gil Newkirk may have spooked Weill, too. Because, in addition to announcing Marciano-****ell, Weill also wanted Valdes (who had a foot-long reach advantage over Marciano) to engage in an eliminator with the light heavyweight champion Archie Moore (who wasn’t ranked at heavyweight) to determine Marciano’s next challenge after ****ell.

(continued)

 

The moved seemed odd.

When Marciano couldn’t decide between fighting La Starza or Charles in 1953, and there was no “logical” contender named, an eliminator was going to be held between the two of them.

Weill didn’t insist Charles or La Starza fight the light heavyweight champ Moore first. That previous eliminator would just involve the top two heavyweight contenders.

Why Valdes (the logical contender) had to fight an eliminator at all was peculiar. But why Valdes and ****ell weren’t asked to engage in an eliminator against each other to determine who would fight Marciano was never posed to Weill.

Some believe Weill simply didn’t want Marciano to fight Valdes, so he demanded Valdes fight Moore, whose style gave Valdes problems. (Moore had outpointed him a few years earlier.)

Valdes and Moore signed to meet in an “elimination” bout. It was held in Las Vegas, where no big fights were held at the time. The fight wasn’t televised. Only the referee (former champ Jim Braddock) scored the fight. Before the bout, Braddock had said he didn’t like Valdes’ slow, clunky style.

Regardless, Braddock still had the fight was close. After 13 rounds, Braddock had it scored 6-5-2 in rounds in favor of Moore. One reporter from United Press International who was at ringside had it even after 13 rounds, 6-6-1.

The UPI reporter said one of Valdes’ eyes was swollen shut. One of Moore’s eyes was also swollen, though not completely closed, and Moore was also bleeding from the nose and mouth.

Both UPI and Braddock gave the 14th and 15th rounds to Moore, giving him a close decision.

Valdes collapsed in the ring after the announcement, feeling he’d been robbed. Then he stormed around the ring looking at ringsiders in disbelief. The UPI made fun of Valdes for complaining, even though he (the reporter) himself had it even after 13.

But the question remains why was Braddock, who expressed his dislike for Valdes’ style, named the sole judge?

In an era when fights were televised three and four times a week on network television, why wasn't an elimination fight between the #1 heavyweight contender and the light heavyweight champ televised?

Surely if Braddock and a UPI reporter had it even after 13 completed rounds, two other judges (who weren’t biased against Valdes' style) could’ve conceivably had the Cuban ahead. Most don't see all 13 rounds of a brutal fight exactly the same.

(Consider if Steve Weisfeld was the sole judge of Provodnikov-Algieri, and the fight wasn’t televised, we’d all look at Weisfeld’s eight-point card favoring Ruslan and laugh when Algieri said he thought he won.)

However, despite the fact that Valdes-Moore was just as close as Marciano-Charles 1 on the cards, there was no return bout for Valdes. And, since there was no film to dispute the verdict, Braddock’s decision was final and Moore got the next shot at Marciano.

Interestingly, four months after ****ell and Valdes lost to Marciano and Moore, respectively, Valdes and ****ell did square off in England and Valdes destroyed the Brit in three rounds.

So we kind of have an idea how that eliminator would've panned out.

A week after Valdes-****ell, Moore floored Marciano but Rocky came on to batter Moore into submission.

Rocky never fought again.

Bottom line is, Valdes was a streaky fighter. He'd win a lot of fights in a row, then he'd get down on himself and lose several in a row. But he earned his #1 ranking to fight Marciano. And, after he lost the decision "no one saw" to Moore, he started losing again ... before going on another run a couple years later.

People like to point out all the guys Valdes lost to. I always look at his situation as being similar to Jimmy Young's. Young lost a lot to bad fighters early in his career. But he also went on a run where you could argue he beat Lyle, Foreman, Ali and Norton ... and should've been seen - ever so briefly - as the best heavyweight in the world ... before he started losing again to the likes of Ossie Ocasio, Dokes and Cooney.

 

This

 

Good post.:good

Who do you think wins Rocky or nino?

 

Excellent post, very well argued!:good

 

That is a good post dubblechin. There is speculation and conjecture to motives and fight results but you put forth a sound theory and a good timeline of events leading up to the Moore fight.
Certaintly is intriguing but I don't find it to be some smoking gun that Marciano avoided Valdes.
Mayweather was set to fight Amir Khan before Madiana vs Broner, than he put Khan on back burner, and made him fight an eliminator on his undercard, which Khan won and he still hasn't signed to fight him. Does that mean he is avoiding Khan? I would say he is weighing his options.

Valdes had his chance against Moore and didn't capitalize. It's a shame there was no TV coverage of the bout. But I can't delve into the reason why that was without it sounding like a paranoid conspiracy theory.

 

I think it's possible that Weill was leery of Valdes, and the possibility that he would have one of his "good nights", against Rocky.

I think Marciano would have been deeply insulted had anyone suggested he duck a fighter.

 

I agree. It is "possible" Weill was concerned with Valdes as an opponent.

And I also agree Rocky would have been offended if anyone suggested he ducked a fighter. He is one of the select few heavies that doesn't have that blemish near his name.

On the long list of contenders avoided by champions in the HW division I doubt Valdes even measures a one on the Richter scale.