Why did Mike Tyson fail to KO James Tillis in ‘86?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mark ant, Sep 4, 2020.


  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Just 4 rounds? Lewis got hit by Ruddock, Bruno, Mercer, and Morrison if we're talking about "early" Lewis prior to the team up with Steward.

    Now granted those guys don't have prime Tyson's unique blend of speed+power, but they are 4 of the hardest hitters of all time and not one of them came close to stopping Lewis. Not sure why people think early Lewis was just ripe for the taking and would crumble the moment he got nailed by a big hit.

    McCall landed the perfect shot using the perfect game plan exploiting a weakness in Lewis style that no one except Steward himself noticed. And it was a big right hand counter down the middle. Tyson was not known for this punch, his two best shots were the left hook and right uppercut. Not only that, Tyson lacked the height and reach to exploit this weakness the way McCall and Rahman could.

    Furthermore, Tyson was much more effective throwing combinations rather than just aiming for one big shot. That often got him in trouble.
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's mostly 1988 Mike's swarming, punches-in-bunches style. I don't believe any of the men you mentioned had that kind of speed, and Mike's punches were BIG, Mike Weaver-level bombs. I just can't see early Lewis handling that kind of charging attack.

    Mike's forward motion alone would give Lewis a major headache, this isn't at all the man he fought in the 21st century and we both know that, my friend. Mike's right hand was absolutely no joke, look what it did to Larry (past his prime or not).
     
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  3. ecto55

    ecto55 דמוקרטיזציה של השממות האיסלאמיות כעת banned Full Member

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    Tillis was selected by Team Tyson because he was on a 3 fight losing streak going into that fight with Tyson + he'd only beaten 1 of his past 5 opponents - and that win was over a journeyman at best. He'd lost 'heart' and 'passion' and they expected that to be reflected in his performance. Everything (like all those fights) was set up for Tyson to blow Tillis away and look good - him losing was never a possibility.

    To illustrate the point...Tyson probably couldn't have fouled out and lost by DQ if he'd wanted to back then, such was the level of his protection. That also contextualizes his later 'craziness' too, if you think about it.

    Yeah, that was the problem..it shouldn't have been, it wasn't supposed to be and the fact it was led to Tyson's handlers to pick out an even bigger loser for the next fight - this time a PCP / crack addict as the opponent. Tyson was Canelo-ing before Canelo.
     
  4. UFC2020

    UFC2020 Active Member Full Member

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    Knock down saved Tyson.
     
  5. UFC2020

    UFC2020 Active Member Full Member

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    Every fighter has off nights. Even Ali, Lewis, Foreman, Holyfield have had fights where they have looked off colour and have had to do something different to win but when Tyson goes the distance but just does enough to get the win he gets roasted for it. Such is the legacy and reputation of the man
     
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  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Excellent post.

    Just remember Steward was in the Lewis corner for both the Mercer fight as well as the Morrison fight.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    He had yet to master and employ the patented frustrating jab, clinch, lean, right hand style of Steward in those fights. Probably why my mind didn't think of Steward. Especially the Mercer fight, that was a very brutal back and forth war with both men opening up.
     
  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    I wasn't trying to suggest Tyson's right hand was a joke.

    I'm simply saying he can't launch it with the same straight down the middle laser like focus of a Mccall or Rahman. 72' reach vs 82 is a huge deal when the opponent is 6'5.

    Plus Holmes was inactive and old rules, c'mon. As much as you like Larry I didn't think you'd use that fight to boost Tyson's credentials.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You're right on both counts, Mike did tend to loop the right hand a lot. And yeah, I fumbled the bit about the Larry fight.

    A little embarassed.
     
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  10. daverobin

    daverobin Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Cause he was 19 years old ..
     
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  11. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Excellent post!

    I would quibble that while Bruno Morrison & Ruddock were amongst the hardest hitters, it is impossible to know if some, all or none were top 4.
    But the only significant quibble would be Mercer does not belong in that elite company.
    His chin might be top 4, or at least close, but while he hit hard, he was not near the hardest hitter.
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Fair enough mate. No biggie.
     
  13. Larry Holmes1

    Larry Holmes1 New Member Full Member

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    Short answer: Because Tyson is the most overrated athlete of all time and he is not anywhere near as good as people think.
    Long answer: Mike was mainly a swarmer in his style at the ring and naturally he is matched best against outboxers.
    Unfortunately this advantage works for most great swarmers who have great stamina, work rate, ring cutting skill and chin combined which Mike didn't really have enough and ironically the decent movers who had a jab bearly above average gave him the most trouble stylistically in his prime and not these big bad sluggers that have a good chance to step in the ring with swarmers.
    With that said, overall as a heavyweight Mike always failed to overcome the big competition for many different reasons.
    He is just not that good at all and he had many weaknesses relatively to a lot of the top great heavyweights.
     
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  14. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You make some good points but bringing up Williams and Kevin McBride who prime Tyson would have knocked out in less than a round?

    Fighters age differently and if we denigrated every formerly great fighter who lost to vastly inferior fighters at the end of their careers it would be a long list.

    Holyfield maintained decent form for an admirably long time but when he did lose it it was not pretty. He became a statue who could not pull the trigger. Nothing against Evander but why don't you mention any of those fights? Because you are trying to form an argument from a biased viewpoint?

    Dokes?

    Tyson was WBC champion by late 1986 when drug addicted Dokes was laying off.
    By mid 1989 Tyson had virtually cleaned out the division and was undisputed champion since July 1988.
    Dokes was reestablishing himself but hadn't beaten anyone good yet in his comeback. Nobody was calling for Tyson to fight him. Holyfield-Dokes was a proper matchup of a former CW champion still establishing himself at HW and a former champion as I said trying to reestablish himself.

    It's true Tyson went off the rails shortly therefter and paved the way for Holyfield to takeover.

    if Tyson had stayed focused and dedicated we would have gotten Tyson-Holyfield in late 1989-1990 or at least in 1991.

    Holyfield not having to face Tyson in that time frame cleared the way for him.

    He got an out of shape, Douglas who had cashed in and in no way resembled the inspired machine that had dethroned a wayward Tyson and then an older, slower George Foreman and an old, comebacking Holmes. When Holyfield finally faced a prime hungry contender he was dethroned by Riddick Bowe.
     
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  15. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Tillis had not been ko'd in four of his previous five fights

    -decison loss to top prospect Tyrell Biggs
    -decision loss to come backing former champion Gerrie Coetzee
    -decision loss to fringe contender Marvis Frazier in which referee Joe Curtis seemingly saved Frazier from a stoppage loss in the second round by jumping in to give him a standing 8 count when he was momentarily helpless. He recovered to outhustle Tillis.
    -decision loss to top prospect Carl "the Truth" Williams where Tillis floored Williams twice early but gassed and was outworked.

    He may have lost 4 of his last 5 but none were by KO and the competition was very high.

    He then came in at 207.5 lbs. against Tyson - the lowest since he fought Mike Weaver in 1981 for the WBA title, losing a decision when he gassed late.

    Tillis had been stopped three times in his career but all against guys who would go on to win titles - Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon,

    He was highly experienced, talented, and in great shape for Tyson. He was a trial horse but one who could fight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2024