Why did Sonny Liston fade out of the title picture after losing his rematch to Ali?

True, having an “O” doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t fight anyone but with a good number of fights under the belt without a defeat perhaps begs deeper scrutiny re the quality of comp. engaged - suffice to say - the concept of padding a record being a thing for many years in boxing. An ultimately recognised ATG (career over) without losses or very few losses is still quite uncommon.

 

Jesus Christ

 

With all due respect, please step down and let Pugs handle it.

 

You said Liston didn’t fight anyone good. Ranked Henry Clark definitely qualified as good.

Martin and Liston were ranked # 3 and # 5 by the WBA respectively going into their fight. The outcome has nothing to do with Liston’s intent - and it’s Liston’s intent that you are questioning.

A win for Liston would’ve promoted his position. As to outcome - don’t ignore the complexion, Liston was winning all the way until he began to notably tire and incurred a cut that impaired his breathing.

Ellis and his team claimed that they offered a match to Liston. That claim was refuted by Liston’s management.

Atop that, Dundee was quoted as clearly stating that Liston was a risk match and that they chose to opt for another opponent instead - and we’re talking the same Ellis who was clearly ducking a unification match against Joe Frazier.

I can accept that Liston himself might’ve viewed Quarry as too high a risk vs reward on his way up the ranks.

However, given a legit straight up shot at either Ellis or Frazier and piece of the title pie, I see no reason why Liston wouldn’t agree to same.

 

Where has it been proven that he DID turn down those fights?

 

Lol. I won’t be in it for long, if not ceasing right now - not getting bogged down in the same ol’. Anyone else wanna jump in? Be my guest.

 

Soon after losing the title Liston was suspended by the WBA which, alongside being unable to get a licence in New York, made it almost impossible for him to fight in the US until the suspension was finally lifted in 1968. Even so, in 1966 he did knock out Amos Johnson who was (possibly undeservedly) ranked 8th at the time.

When he was finally able to resume his career in the US, he was back to fighting ranked contenders. Not in every single fight of course, but no one does.

 

Because Liston was a high risk low reward fight. Who the hell would want to take on such a dangerous fighter? And if you beat him, people can discredit your win by saying you beat an old man or beat a mob connected guy who threw the fight?

I doubt Futch would have matched Frazier vs Liston in 1967. Who else? Quarry couldn't keep even an old Liston off him. Ellis doesn't have the height and reach to outbox him from a distance. Neither guy beats Liston until 1968 at the earliest.

High risk, low reward.

 

Not sure why people criticize Frazier for not fighting Liston at that point in his career. Frazier would've most likely beat Liston at that point but their were higher rated, easier stylistic match-ups, worth far more money. If any manager made this fight, they would've certainly been fired.

 

Not criticizing Frazier at all. Of course Frazier would never duck anyone. Just stating that Liston was a high risk low reward fight, which is why he was essentially frozen out of the picture.

 

I was agreeing with you. I've never understood the whole "Frazier ducking punchers" thing. This guy was brave (and stupid) enough to fight Foreman of all people AGAIN after being demolished in their first fight..... and having declined substantially since said fight.

 

If there was any truth to Frazier steering away from punchers it wouldn’t have anything to do with Joe himself. I totally agree on that.

If there was any possibility of same it would come down to Joe’s trainer/management, for sure.

Frazier is right up there with the most fearless of warriors - Joe rematching Foreman is a testament to that fact, as you said. I shouldn’t say “most” - Frazier was fearless, period.

Ali himself actually beat Foreman but he wasn’t exactly too fussed about facing George again.

True or not, I’ve read here and there that Yank Durham was reluctant about Joe facing Foreman - though per the rankings and after two quiet years, Joe kinda had to - correct?

At least for their first fight it did seem that Joe had somehow, inexplicably underrated Foreman.

Sure, there might’ve been some “padding” to George’s record or, conversely viewed as acceptable lesser quality of opposition on the way up aka good management - but Foreman also had some very good wins that impressed and contributed to his development -

Any which way, his demonstrated unworldly power was downright scary…….even his very early (1970) systemic destruction of Chuvalo - an opponent common to both Ali and Frazier - had to have raised eyebrows and concerns among the field.

 

Sonny was an undesirable.

In the eyes of the public, he either did or at least may have thrown one or two fights for the heavyweight championship of the world.

Doesn’t actually inspire a promoter to put his money behind Sonny. Nobody wants to be in the position of investing a lot of money in a public event where your selling point is trying to convince ticket-buyers that your main eventer isn’t a quitter.

The regard in which he is held by many on this forum today is no reflection of how the public regarded him at the time: as a guy who disgraced himself in the ring, as a guy tied to the mob, as a guy who had trouble staying out of jail (and known to physically attack policemen, who were held in high regard generally as public servants and guardians). Nobody ever in that era said to their son, ‘I want you to grow up and be like Sonny Liston.’

 

If Quarry faced Liston after Mac Foster he would kill old Sonny.

 

Right. Box office poison. No promoter was going to step up and offer him much money. So absolute minimal opportunities when promoters won't touch you.