Why did Sonny Liston/his team attempt to cheat Vs a 7-1 underdog and then quit?

I am not insisting on Liston's guilt here, but in UNDEFEATED they covered how it wasn't always put on the glove, but sometimes on the shoulder, as that is what Marciano's sources claimed Walcott did.

Again, I don't know. All that can be said is that Ali and Marciano were blinded by something.

 

Manfred Mann knew

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I just rewatched between rounds 4 and 5.

Tbh, I couldn’t see that Dundee approached Felix - they did close up on Ali’s corner but it appeared Dundee was there all the while.

It also appeared that Felix remained in the upper right neutral corner between the given rounds - though just prior to the start of the 5th Bundini can be seen motioning to the ref and pointing toward Liston’s corner.

As for Steve Ellis and Joe Louis, they only observe Ali arguing with Angelo and Dundee appearing to tell Muhammad off. If anyone had approached Felix during the 1 minute test period, you’d think they might’ve highlighted same.

The first mention of any eye issue comes from Louis just after the bell for round 5 sounds.

After round 5 finishes I can’t see anyone from Ali’s corner approach Felix either - Felix did walk toward Liston’s corner, not to check anything re Liston and his team, rather, to briefly liaise with someone nearby at ringside.

In all possibility I guess vision of Felix checking the gloves might not have been caught on camera - but per the available vision, as seen and implied, it doesn’t seem to be the case - at least not during the time frame that Felix claimed (between rounds 4 and 5).

I don’t think I’ve read Dundee having ever claimed to have alerted the ref. giving rise to Felix duly checking Liston’s gloves - but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t.

At any rate, imo, there is plenty of evidence besides (including a screaming lack of literal, hard evidence) to support the belief that Liston didn’t dip the gloves.

Machen’s ridiculously belated and self serving claim had/has no substance (excuse pun) to it whatsoever.

Eddie gave some excuses immediately after he fought Liston - being blinded wasn’t one of them and there was certainly no chance of any love lost between Sonny and Eddie. If he suspected it, he would’ve claimed it in real time.

Also, Dundee liked a good story (see: Angelo claimed up to 4 mins gained between rounds 4 and 5 vs Cooper, lol!!) but he even debunked the myth of Liston having deliberately blinded Ali. It didn’t happen.

I’ll be clear here also - I vaguely recollect that Dundee might’ve put the blame on himself at one time - perhaps suggesting he used the wrong towel or something, mean he accidentally contaminated Ali’s eyes - BUT don’t quote me on that though , I’d have to dig up the primary source to support my memory of same.

 

True, you can't necessarily take people's recollections as gospel without something to back them up. Felix also claimed that Ali was refusing to get off his stool when the bell rang for the start of the 5th, which the film shows is just not true.

On the film, you can hear Bundini saying "he's got something on his gloves" and the referee just ignores him. But of course it's possible that's because he'd already checked and knew it wasn't true.

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Excellent pick up re Bundini. I pushed through with the speed bar to watch and had the sound down but could see Bundini physically indicating something to the ref just prior to the start of round 5.

As you say, anything is possible and it’s hard to imagine Felix going so far as to say (fabricate) that he made due checks without actually checking Liston’s gloves at some point, post Ali’s obvious eye issues.