Why Did Wilder give Fury a title shot if he thought he was a cheater

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Mister Pugilist, Jan 24, 2023.

  1. ConfusedGuy

    ConfusedGuy Member Full Member

    Oct 29, 2020
    I, along with many others, believe that Fury was a carefully chosen opponent for Wilder. You clearly don't and I don't think either one of us is going to change the others mind.

    Great, if not a bit one sided, trilogy of fights though. So in the end I'm glad that they got in the ring together, regardless of what Wilders motivation for fighting him was.
    Entaowed and Dubblechin like this.
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 25, 2014
    Fair enough.
    Entaowed likes this.

    MAD_PIGE0N ... Full Member

    Sep 3, 2022
    Wilder gave him a title shot because he was thinking that Fury isn't that good and being out of the sport, sunk in drugs, alcohols and fat, he'll be easy to beat. Shortly: some of the worst cherry-picking in the history of the sport. He didn't say anything after their first fight because he knew he was saved by corrupted judges, but started crying when Fury blew his pathetic *sshole.
    fencik45 likes this.
  4. fencik45

    fencik45 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Jun 6, 2022
    Means he thought less of him than he did Povetkin, who he ducked the second ped was mentioned. He also had no issues fighting Stiverne after he popped for peds. Just shows he used peds as an excuse for selective ducking.
    The Long Count likes this.
  5. lobk

    lobk Original ESB Member Full Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Money money money.
  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 25, 2014
    Wilder was about as "terrified" of Alexander Povetkin as he was Wawrzyk, who also popped dirty, and Wilder didn't fight him either.

    Wilder dropped the Wawrzyk fight the moment PEDs were mentioned, too. They were cheating. Screw them.

    Personally, I like how some guys here just selectively blame the guy who didn't take PEDs because he didn't fight every last guy presented to him WHO WERE cheating and took PEDs.

    That's some weird rationalizing.

    Povetkin LIED and claimed he wasn't dirty. The WBC gave him a second chance and an eliminator with Stiverne later that year, and Povetkin (and the whole damn country of Russia) popped dirty AGAIN and Povetkin was dropped from all the ratings organizations rankings for a time (and Russia was banned from the Olympics for state-sponsored juicing). The "caught" Povetkin even stood next to Putin when Putin denied the charges.

    Then, coming off hand and bicep surgery, Wilder signed to fight Wawrzyk, but he popped dirty, too.

    Then Wilder signed to fight Ortiz in 2017, and he popped, too. Three opponents in a row, Povetkin, Wawrzyk and Ortiz, all failed drug tests.

    How do you train and get your head right when EVERY time you sign to fight someone for the better part of two years, the original opponent fails his drug test ... and even one of the late replacement opponents (Arreola) offered by PBC ... and the replacement opponent handed down by the WBC (Stiverne) were two guys who failed PED tests in the fights they were signed to compete in before facing you? (Arreola against Kauffman/Stiverne against Povetkin).

    If you put yourself in Wilder's shoes, at some point, particularly in those few years, you had to feel like you were stuck.

    Among the four #1 contenders the WBC rated during Wilder's reign (2015 to 2020) ... ALL OF THEM (Povetkin, Stiverne, Whyte and Fury) ... were boxers who were PED cheats. ALL of them.

    All of them got busted. Povetkin got busted before every scheduled fight he had in 2016. Whyte got banned for PEDs for two years early in his career and got caught again for the Rivas fight. Fury got caught before the Wlad rematch.

    They all had excuses, but they all got caught.

    And, at some point, if the org you represent keeps rating PED cheats as your top contenders ... and the guys that PBC starts offering you (Arreola and Ortiz) are also caught PED cheats ... like I said last night, it's like Floyd Patterson and the International Boxing Club.

    D'Amato didn't want Patterson to fight Machen and Zora Folley and basically every other top contender, because they were affiliated with the IBC. But, what are you left with if you don't fight those guys? Roy Harris? Tom McNeeley?

    Who is Wilder supposed to fight if he doesn't fight PED cheats? Out of Wilder's last eight fights, I believe only two (Breazeale and Helenius) opponents haven't ever been caught cheating. And both lasted less than a round.

    So, even though he didn't like fighting PED cheats earlier, like Povetkin and Wawrzyk, he basically gave in and started fighting them. What else are you going to do?

    And if you're going to pick out of that bunch of cheaters someone to fight three times and someone to fight two times ...

    Picking Tyson Fury and Luis Ortiz probably proved to be tougher opponents than Whyte and Povetkin.

    (BTW, I believe Whyte and Povetkin were the only two out of that group of cheaters who were officially caught TWICE and were both the only two officially suspended for a time. So, **** them.)

    But just because you resign yourself to the fact that you have to give up 20, 30, 40 pounds in weight every time you fight, and you have to fight DRUG CHEATS every time you box ...

    You don't have to put on a happy face when a drug cheat beats you.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
    Entaowed likes this.
  7. Mickc

    Mickc Active Member Full Member

    Nov 28, 2015
    Wilder saw what Fury had become it was an out and out cherry pick. It’s been mentioned since by Wilder and his team but Fury’s scalp and Lineal title was what they were after and so when a nowhere near fully fit Fury recovering from drug and alcohol abuse and also dealing with massive weight loss said he would fight Wilder they jumped on it. The idea was a win over Fury would give them a better deal when they sat down at the table with Joshua and his team for a potential fight. We all know how that plan turned out .
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 25, 2014
    Yes. We DO know how it turned out. It resulted in Wilder's eighth successful title defense.

    YOU don't seem to remember how it turned out.

    You seem to be lumping the first fight, the second fight, and some version of Fury that Wilder never faced all together into one event that never occurred.

    Don't worry. You're not the only one around here who seems to do that.

    Wilder signed to defend against Tyson Fury in 2018. I posted the video of the announcement of the fight. Fury wasn't bloated or drug addled. He was more than prepared to fight Wilder.

    Fury had been training all year for it and had already won two tune up fights.

    Here, I'll post it again.

    Wilder SUCCESSFULLY defended against Tyson Fury for the eighth time two months later.

    Wilder then made two more successful title defenses (numbers nine and 10) ... one-punch knockouts over Breazeale and against Ortiz the second time.

    And then Wilder defended the WBC belt for the 11th time against Tyson Fury in a fight for the WBC and Ring championship. That's the fight Wilder lost.

    But, by that point, Fury was six fights and two FULL years into his comeback.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  9. fencik45

    fencik45 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Jun 6, 2022
    Ortiz couldn't hold a candle to Povetkin.
    Finkel likes this.
  10. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    I want to fairly consider what you claim.
    You mentioned only one potential Red Flag", there are many others he does not show, like acne, suden onset male pattern baldness, particular health problems, etc.

    Still IF the weight gain is of suspicious enough speed & most all in lean mass, I might agree that you are likely RIGHT.

    Such as if he gained almost all muscle (likely true), in a short time between fights, while ALREADY while ALREADy well developed, & it was new muscle mass...
    But this is not at all the case.

    1) Wilder was as heavy as just under 230, LEAN, in a bunch of fights, for years.

    2) At 6'7", this & his heaviest weights ever-somewhat less especially for his height than many like the Wlad & Lewis & so many others...
    Is not that much, & well within what guys might develop naturally.

    3) He was at his lightest for years when fighting Fury for the first time 212.5.
    That is precisely peak ALI'S weight-who is at least 4" shorter, & especially in the 1960's never looked at all bulky nor like he may have touched a weight.

    4) The time between 2018 & 2020 that you are referencing is well over a year.
    almost 20 lbs. in that time is plausible, especially considering...

    5) If you had that bulk before, it is documantably easier & much quicker to get there again.

    This is not like Holyfield.
    Another man whose muscle was mostly upper body.
    Holyfield was never as skinny at HW (5" shorter) as Wilder.
    The leaner you are, the more muscle that you have potential to add.
    Also Holyfield never WAS as big as he became before.

    Lastly, there is copious evidence from the Balco investigation that Holyfield used steroids & HGH.
    And gained pure muscle faster.
  11. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012

    "When I hear you guys drone on about Fury, you'd think Tyson Fury entered the ring in a wheelchair, totally blind, weighing 400 pounds with white pounder smeared under his nose".

    Let's be reasonable.
    Fury was no more than 385 in their first fight, tops, & was (barely) able to walk into the ring under his own power
    All the drugs merely made him legally blind.
    He was still as good as 20-60 in one eye.

    The white "pounder" under his nose, well true, but that was only from smashing rocks up because he heard that they had the white "powder" inside. :smash2:

    You forgot that Fury had Ebola too, but I will let it slide this time.
    Dubblechin likes this.
  12. Slyk

    Slyk Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Dec 5, 2010
    What an epic title defense, a draw robbery against a guy who was in fat camp and drug rehab for a year. Glad someone out there is counting them.

    95% of viewers saw Wilder lose the first fight.

    Are you the guy who filmed Wilder making out with his statue?
    Mickc, MAD_PIGE0N and Finkel like this.
  13. Jon Saxon

    Jon Saxon Active Member Full Member

    Jun 1, 2011
    Good post.
    I think they are all on it.
  14. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    I deconstructed his post above, gave a bunch of reasons that it is irrational & unfair to assume everyone was on the juice.
    Address what I wrote point by point if you think you can prove otherwise.
    I'll have to have Tim Witherspoon, posting here, set y'all straight!

    Anyway, I do not comprehend why some critique Wilder, or any fighter, for fighting anyone who is on the juice.
    If they are willing to take the risk, beating a cheatin' fighter is more of an accomplishments.

    For all the problems Wilder has as a boxer & in general, heart & effort are a virtue!
  15. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Active Member Full Member

    Oct 9, 2022
    Risk-reward: beating Fury would have massively raised Wilder's profile and got him a 50-50 split in the Joshua fight. Fury hadn't looked great in the Seferi and Pianeta fights, so the belief was that his lifestyle over most of the previous 3 years had compromised him to some degree. Team Wilder also believed they'd have 12 rounds to land critical bombs, which was true in fight 1.

    The idea that it was a complete cherry pick though is inaccurate. Wilder wasn't a big favourite and I've seen polls from around the time with Fury having a majority of the votes to win. Fury was regarded as being the 2nd toughest possible opponent, tougher than anyone save AJ. Fury's win over Klitschko in Germany, his year back in training + tune ups and the fact that he was taking the fight made many believe that he had a great chance of winning.

    Wilder isn't a particularly intelligent or rational person though so it's pointless trying to analyse what he says too deeply.