Why didn’t Holmes ever unify?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Devon, Jul 27, 2024.


  1. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Seemed to be in pretty good shape at 221. He just got beat.
     
  2. bolo specialist

    bolo specialist Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If anything, he came in too light (overtrained?) & was short on strength & power. Either way, the loss was devastating blow to his reputation.

    Yet according to the WBC, a win over Snipes less than a year later was all that was needed to make him the clear & unequivocal best challenger in the world.
     
  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    That's incorrect. Please provide a source. Page - Berbick was never about the winner fighting Holmes.

    As a matter of fact, in March 82 (just before Berbick) Greg Page requested the WBA drop him a slot in their ranking as he didn't believe he was quite ready for a title shot.

    On the other hand Page - Snipes was absolutely about getting a shot at Holmes - it was actually a title shot eliminator between the number #1 and #2 contenders for a mandatory shot at Holmes.

    So Page did exactly what he had to cement himself in as Holmes next opponent. Holmes didn't fulfill his part of the bargain as WBC world heavyweight champ no matter how it is cut.
     
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  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    That's because Dokes was managed by Kings son. By that stage they wanted to keep Dokes as WBA champ and preparing for Holmes to bow out either via retirement or a loss at some point in the not so distant future.

    Most are simple excuses. The fact of the matter is Holmes publicly stated he would not be fighting the best anymore and then did exactly that. People bend over backwards to excuse it all and we've seen every excuse imaginable in here over the last 20 odd years. It's akin to someone saying i am going to hit you on the head with a hammer then hitting someone on the head with the hammer but people say, well, he didn't really hit him on the head with a hammer. It's just that straightforward. It is what it is.

    Holmes actually gets held to a lesser standard than most truth be told. It's evident in all the shucking and jiving that goes on every time this topic comes up. Loads of champs defended and didn't get what they wanted but they defended and did the obligatory thing anyway. Holmes wanted to have his cake and eat it. Don King and the WBC weren't playing along.
     
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  5. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Loyal Member Full Member

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    So now the new doctrine seems to be that if a #1 contender isn’t an “ authentic “ contender then he’s not really a #1 contender..
     
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  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    For countless years people have parroted if Page beat Bey he would have got a shot at Holmes, he lost so Bey got the shot. For years I've explained to people no mate that's incorrect. Below highlighted in green, in Holmes own words, we see the actual truth of the matter. Trouble is people always eschew Holmes words when they don't suit them anyhow. Here is Holmes telling us all (that will listen) that he didn't even want Bey, really. Page wasn't even in the picture, nor were any top 5 fighters to be frank.

    On top of this he's promoting the idea of a huge money fight with Cooney who had fought just twice in 3 years, less than 3 rounds to be exact. He signals his full intents moving forward by joking about fighting the winner of Hagler - Hearns". If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. His racist remarks aimed at Bey are also a little eye opening given his previous comments and stances on the matter.





    Larry Holmes 48 out from Bey
    - You don't have a chance". "David you're a half breed and you know whites bleed". (Bey had an Irish mother and a father of Lebanese descent who was Joe Louis' sparring partner in the army".

    Bey - "Holmes is a basic 1-2-3 fighter"

    Larry Holmes post fight - "This is my last fight, i'm not defrauding the public.
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    I said the door was partially cracked not closed on another fight, but i don't expect anybody to come up with $25 million for a Cooney fight. Cooney is white, it would help the gate, but every time he hears my name he gets sick. He can't forget u hurt him every time i hit him. "

    "Butch Lewis handles Spinks, so he wants a lot of money too. Even is a promoter was willing to pay me $4 million, there might be a problem with Spinks people. I have a release from Don King to fight anybody else, i'm a free agent" I might fight Spinks, but only for money not ego. Or (laughing) the winner of Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Thomas Hearns, but definitely no more big guys. I'm tired of guys like David Bey hitting me up the side of the head. That means no Pinklon Thomas, no Greg Page, no Tim Witherspoon. "
     
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  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    You've shared these threads with me for years old mate. Just when you think you've seen it all................

    This can be the Armageddon thread on the topic. Over coming days/weeks i'll post stuff as i slowly come across it again even if i have to type it out per my last post. I couldn't be bothered going that hard in previous years but this illusion never seems to end.
     
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  8. Roughhouse

    Roughhouse Active Member Full Member

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    The amount of excuses for Holmes extra-crappy title defenses is both humorous and amazing to me. Holmes had zero shame about hand selecting absolutely harmless challengers and taking network money to do it and the older and smarter I get about life and business, the absolute less I blame him.

    That being said, the only "tough" fights Holmes had outside of the Cooney defense were complete accidents. Weaver was a nondescript journeyman who was so lightly regarded that the networks, who took Zanon and Lucien Rodriquez, wanted no part of it at any price. Witherspoon was a pudgy 16 fight novice who barely squeaked by a sleepy Renaldo Snipes at the time Holmes cherrypicked him. And Holmes admitted he picked Carl Williams only because he saw Tillis put him on the deck and shut off the VCR thinking he was another stumblebum patsy.

    Stop defending "Low Risk Larry" and this deceitful nonsense that "Holmes would take on all comers" like he was a heavyweight Hagler. He wasn't. He was never taking any risks with his belts unless the money was above and beyond the risk several times over.

    I'm surprised North Platte, Nebrasks didn't get a Lupe Guerra-Larry Holmes fight somewhere in 1980 as a tuneup for the Ali fight. After all, Guerra was undefeated there for a moment. If Holmes could have gotten paid, it would have happened I'd bet.
     
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    nytimes June 1985


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  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yep. A classic never gets old as they say. This topic has resurfaced at least twice a year since I came here in 2007.

    Btw, was Scott Ledoux an “ authentic “ contender ?
     
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  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Loyal Member Full Member

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    Surely Lupe Guerra was an authentic contender
     
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  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    He was a #9'ish to #10 type for a short time. A fringe contender type.
     
  13. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Loyal Member Full Member

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    Was he just a # 10 or was he an “ authentic “ #10 ?
     
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  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    He was Ring rated and that's pretty much the standard we all acknowledge. I'm not saying he was a strong fringe contender but he was OK i guess.

    Page fought him 5 months later and made him look like he'd never boxed.
     
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  15. Markus.C.65

    Markus.C.65 Member Full Member

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    Guess we'll just have to disagree. Time proved that Dokes and Page weren't ' All that '
    Dokes list of top wins is paper thin.
    I have no argument that Larry picked some defenses carefully but so did Ali ( Dunn. Wepner, Coopmans, etc) When you've reigned for some time and beat the best , you earn that right.
    Larry was pragmatic and came out of boxing in better shape than many , so I guess he got it right.
    I can only reiterate I followed it all in real time and never felt short changed by his reign .
     
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