Why didn’t Jake Lamotta...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Greb & Papke 707, Jun 5, 2019.



  1. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Remember that the first 5 fights they had Robinson was a Welterweight. He was giving away massive weight by fight time. Graziano was a true Middleweight who could crack. Satterfield was a 10 fight rookie.

    Rocky swatted Ray to the canvas when Sugar was a full fledged Middleweight and Ray always remembered that power.
     
  2. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    This isn't unique to LaMotta. Lots of fighters frozen out of the title scene would mix it up like this with their neighboring weight classes. Welter vs Middle was simply more common than Middle vs Light Heavy over the greater difference in weight.

    Do we call Ezzard Charles a bully for fighting and beating Charles Burley? No, in fact they are often touted as two of his greatest wins.


    LaMotta still fought several light heavies like Satterfield, Fox, Wagner, Yarosz, Bob Murphy..etc. Though he would come in heavy for these fights of course.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  3. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    Graziano wouldn't fight Jake.If he had fought a Zale anywhere near his prime, he would never have won the title. Graziano didn't hit as hard as Robinson or Satterfield.
    Jake floored Robinson too. Who was the best prime middle Rocky beat?
     
  4. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Zale beats him
     
  5. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah but Jake sure didn’t mix it up often with his neighbors to the north of his weight class very often.

    Apart from the Fox fight (which was a fix) and maybe some bouts when he was well past contention he didn’t chose to be the guy on the short end of the weight disparity.
     
  6. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Graziano wasn't in Jake's league. Rocky was a propped up ticket seller who made his rep on welters. Jake took on some of the toughest hombres up to light heavy. He was the opposite of protected.
     
  7. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Klompton has looked into this period some, and it's his belief that Graziano wanted no part of Lamotta. I tend to agree with that. With Zale, I'm not sure what kept that fight from happening other than the time period may not have matched up all that well for the fight to come off.
     
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  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jake wanted Zale. Zale wouldnt fight him. In fact the NBA wanted Zale to fight Jake and he refused. They also dictated that Graziano fight Jake and he refused as well, twice, prior to Graziano fighting Zale. When Jake became champ he signed to defend against Graziano and Graziano backed out. The old rumor from press people in Graziano's camp at the time was that there was some feeling that Jake wouldnt go through with the fight. Supposedly Graziano's manager visited Jake's camp then showed up at Graziano's camp and told him Jake was serious and looking good. The reporters said Graziano turned around, punched a tree, and broke his hand getting him out of the fight. Whether thats true or not the fight was cancelled because of Graziano injuring his hand and Tiberio Mitri was substituted for Graziano. Whether you want to believe me or not Jake had ZERO fear of Graziano, wanted that fight BAD (it was big bucks for him) and Graziano and his manager Jackie Healey knew better than take a sure loss to LaMotta which would have frozen them completely out of the title picture. Instead they rested on Graziano's wins over welterweights and popularity to gain a shot at the title rather than actually fight their way up the MW rankings (which Graziano would have never been able to do. He couldnt have beaten anyone in the top five and maybe not anyone in the top ten when Zale came back from the war, hell Zale probably couldnt have).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
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  9. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    Ive already addressed this.

    Middle vs Welter fights were more common in general. Just as Light Heavy vs Heavy were more common. LaMotta was not an outlier.

    I already listed several fights besides Fox and only one was after his MW Title reign. And as I noted, he came in over 160 against light heavies because he could. He chose not to give up weight if he didnt have to. Cant fault him for that. Any smart fighter would do the same.

    Ezzard Charles came in over 160 when he beat Welterweight Burley. And then had 9 pounds on him in the rematch. These wins are praised as great achievements, while LaMotta gets bashed as a bully. I think more modern fans are drawn to LaMotta over the movie and lack understanding of that era of boxing.
     
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  10. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    Maybe.
     
  11. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I glanced at a two- or three-year period where he occasionally was outweighed by minimal amounts - a pound or two mostly - a few times and probably had six or eight for each of those were he outweighed the opponent by close to 10 pounds. Nowhere close to an even amount. He was a weight bully.
     
  12. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Angelo Dundee was once asked about a Lamotta Rocky fight and who'd win,,, his answer was " are you kiddin, La Motta woulda killed him"
     
  13. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Yea I know he would've beaten Graziano. I was trolling for Rocky a bit. He just gets **** on for not fighting some of the dangerous guys at the time. It's all true but he gets singled out most of the time but he wasn't the only guy ducking.
    I don't know who his manager was but he did a fine job. He was an attraction and they milked it. I'm not sure aboutathe punching the tree story though. That doesn't sound like something a fighter would do.
    Graziano was a warrior when the bell rang.
     
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  14. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I have an interview done with Vikki LaMotta in the 1980s where she goes into the LaMotta-Graziano fight. She says (and Im paraphrasing here). "Jake wanted to fight Rocky BAD (she really emphasizes how badly Jake wanted a Graziano fight. Despite the fact that they were friends Jake really wanted to fight Rocky. They were signed to fight at one point and Rocky hurt his hand. That was the story but Jake said he punched a tree to get out of the fight (Ive heard this story elsewhere) so the fight got cancelled. But Jake really wanted to fight Rocky. It would have been a great fight but Jake would have won. He would have really beaten Rocky bad." Now keep in mind that Vikki was close friends with Rocky and his wife Rosalie, the families hung out and spent a lot of time together, and that while she had been married to Jake she wasnt exactly his biggest fan and was given to being frank about him. Regardless it gives an interesting insiders insight.
     
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  15. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Interesting posts. All this weight talk inspired me to check Jake LaMotta's weights for fights. Jake's weights are always given first.

    First, Jake and his name light-heavy opponents
    Jimmy Reeves (167-166, 164-166, 160-160)
    Nate Bolden (164-163)
    Bob Satterfield (167-165)
    Billy Fox (167-174)
    Bob Murphy (175-176, 169-176)
    Danny Nardico (173-177)
    Lloyd Marshall (158 1/2-160 1/4) (Marshall was contracted to come in under 161 and had to post a $5000 bond to make that weight)

    Jake and smaller big name opponents
    Jimmy Edgar (160-149, 160-154)
    Sugar Ray Robinson (161-145) (Jake's one win)
    Jackie Wilson (161-145)
    Fritzie Zivic (156-152, 158-151, 161-150, 159-152)
    George Costner (158-152)
    Bert Lytell (160-153)
    Tommy Bell (161-148, 161-151, 161-151)
    Tony Janiro (155-149)

    and Jake's losses
    Jimmy Reeves (167-166, 164-166)
    Nate Bolden (164-163)
    Jose Basora (158-155)
    Sugar Ray Robinson (158-145, 161-145, 158-149, 159-150, 160-156)
    Fritzie Zivic (158-151)
    Lloyd Marshall (158 1/2-160 1/4)
    Cecil Hudson (165-155)
    Billy Fox (167-174)
    Laurent Dauthielle (161-157)
    Robert Villemain (165-162)
    Bob Murphy (175-176)
    Norman Hayes (169-163)
    Danny Nardico (173-177)
    Billy Kilgore (167-165)

    I found these weights revealing.