It was actually mentioned during the fight coverage of McGirt-Whitaker on HBO that the deal had already been made, win lose or draw. They also mentioned it to Pernell after the fight (that he had a deal already signed to fight Chavez) and I think Pernell made out like he wasn't aware that it was even signed (not sure if he was just playing around or not). I have to say, I DO believe the Duva's wanted the fight at welterweight (or a catchweight as it turned out) so as to favour Whitaker, but they must not have been too confident going into the Chavez fight given that Pernell had just recieved the toughest fight of his career by far against McGirt. I think they probably would have been more confident before the McGirt fight that Whitaker could beat Chavez. In light of which it DOES make sense that they would have had the Chavez-Whitaker fight ready to go before the McGirt bout even took place.
Why are we criticizing the Duva's for ducking Chavez, I mean don king is the master of making his fighters look good. I don't think it's a coincidence that Felix Trinidad fought nobodies from 1995-1998, King knew his boy wasn't ready for Pernell and fighting Ike at that time would have been a huge risk too.
divac, all you have to do is watch the HBO broadcast of the McGirt vs. Whitaker fight. They mention the deal before the fight, let you know that Whitaker didn't know of the deal before the fight, and Larry Merchant informs of the deal in his interview after the fight. The Duva's didn't want him looking past McGirt to Chavez. Duva is a promoter. He does not care about protecting fighters as a first concern, that is a managers job. Promoters want the best deal, and the most that can be made off a fighter. If Whitaker has the title that they are fighting for, they have a little more leverage when they negotiate. The fight ended up on Showtime, so you see the challenger still carried more weight at the negotian table. Making the fight at welter also generates more money. You have a three division titlist defending against a man trying to win a world title in his 4th weight class. It's was nothing about ducking, it was all about dollars.
As far as the fight not happening at 140 lbs, the Duva's admitted that Pernell was'nt quite ready to take on Chavez right at the time Pernell made his move to the 140 lbs division. Like I said before, the Duva's manuevered both Taylor and Whitaker away from 140 lbs without as much as talking up a fight with Chavez. I will guarantee you one thing, had Pernell Whitaker lost to Buddy Mcgirt, there is absolutely no way that Chavez' team or Don King would have touched Pernell Whitaker coming off of a loss. There would have been nothing to gain moneywise or as far as elevating Chavez' stature as a fighter, but there would have been alot of risk because of Chavez and his team knew that Pernell Whitaker's style did'nt lend itself to look good against.
I think you need to be a bit more flexible with what you consider prime. The way you talk you make it sound like Chavez's prime lasted 45 minutes against Rosario (What with his being weight drained and sub par in 86 against Laporte and Lockridge and a little off against Ramirez in 88.) Talking like that you could say Pernell Whitaker peaked in 1989 against Haugen and Ramirez and then then he was 4 years past his prime when he met Chavez. This is of course, bollocks. Chavez no doubt had his best performance against Rosario, but his prime did not end there. He had some fights where he struggled subsequently (e.g. Mayweather II, Taylor), but he also had some fights where he looked damn near as impressive as he did against Rosario (e.g. Haugen and Camacho). He was outside his best weight class when he fought at 140, but he wasn't past his prime if you interpret that somewhat loosely so as not to reach an absurd position like saying he had a one fight or one year prime. I don't think there was much decline between 89-93 at all, other than say perhaps being a bit slower and not as active as he was at lightweight. But hey, you could say that of Pernell Whitaker as well in so far as his speed and workrate at welterweight declined compared to what it was at lightweight.
I'm in agreement! .....of course there was some decline after so many fights and fighting and mantaining himself almost year round in the Gym fighting so often..... .....but I dont think the decline was that significant that its worth mentioning as an excuse leading to the Whitaker fight. Chavez had his problems soon after Pernell Whitaker with motivation and keeping up a hectic fight schedule layed upon him by Don King to get to 100-0....... Fighting so often, and just coming off a few months of putting himself through the rigors of preparing for Pernell Whitaker, Chavez may have been burnt out, needing a rest, when Don King matched him with a fighter on a winning streak (Frankie Randall) and being told by Don King that Randall was a pushover. In hindsight, trying to reach 100-0 may have cut down on Chavez' prime. There were many times where Chavez talked to the spanish media in Los Angeles admitting to arm and foot injuries...... The man probably needed rest, but Don King needed to make money!:think
There is probably some truth to what you're saying Tbooze..... ....worth mentioning is the fact that a fighter like Chavez that fought so often is'nt going to come in 100% focused and ready everytime out..... .....some fighters you're going to get up more for than others and train a little bit harder for. If you remember the Camacho and Haugen fights, these fighters were talkers that got under Chavez' skin....... .....thats all the motivation Chavez needed for him to get prime for them!:yep If you go back to Chavez' finest hour, El Chapo Rosario also talked up a good game, even bringing in a witch doctor to put a hex on JC Chavez. The hex by Rosario's witch doctor is who's responsible for bringing out Chavez trademark red head band. I believe it was given to Chavez by someone in his entourage to ward evil spirits, and it became a trademark for Chavez for each of his fights! Motivation or lack of was probably more responsible with a few of Chavez less than stellar performances. Ultimately for most greats, its that lack of motivation in combination with injury that gets them beat!
True words here. Motivation is a key factor. Age makes fighters decline but its usually when there is no motivation there that there is a huge drop off in performance. Re the Rosario fight, I think Rosario actually called Chavez's mother a slut as well before the fight. I remember reading an article where Chavez said he and everyone in his entourage started crying in the dressing room after the fight. He was UP for that fight, no question.
The scarey thing about that fight, is that Rosario's wife/girlfriend made their young son (think he was 9) watch the entire fight in tears from ringside...
divac, you can't guarantee the fight would not have happened if Whitaker lost to McGirt. You can say you don't believe it would happen, but you can't guarantee it. I'm still taking the HBO team's, Lou Duva's, and Pernell Whitaker's word for it over yours. Especially since they said it before the Chavez fight took place. I have never seen where any of the Duvas said Whitaker was not ready for Chavez at 140. I used to read in magazines of Whitaker, and his team, calling Chavez out from the time he was at lightweight. I might buy this Chavez not as good at 147 crap if he had been facing a natural 147 pounder in Whitaker. 147 is two divisions up from Whitaker's normal weight. If you really thought that fight was a draw, you aren't going to believe anything other than excuses for why he didn't beat Whitaker. Go back and watch the fight. Chavez wins rounds 1,2,5,and 9. That's it. Chavez' attitude, and remarks, told the real story. He said he would not fight Whitaker again, and wouldn't face a southpaw again, when the fight was over. Does that sound like something a person who didn't feel defeated would say?
Lou Duva said it in one of the promotional pre-fight shows leading to Chavez-Whitaker.......Duva was being questioned on why the fight had'nt happened soon after Chavez' fight with Meldrick Taylor...... .....if I had only read it, It would be a possibility that Duva's words were misconstrued.....but I heard it from the Fat mans mouth! Part of what destroyed Meldrick Taylor mentally imo was that he wanted badly a rematch with Chavez......but the Duva's steered him away from 140 lbs, and away from a possible rematch. .....and they did the same with Pernell Whitaker....The Duva's wanted Chavez at 147 lbs! ......and as far as the Chavez-Whitaker fight, the last time I score it which was several years back, I actually re-scored it 6-5-1 in favor of Chavez. I'll stick with my original score however. I'm the type of scorer that will judge like most judges do.....I dont give a whole lot of credence to punches landed that are meant and landed as guage finders. Whitaker landed alot of jabs while on the backpedal that had nothing behind them, they were more to guage than to do damage...and yet they're counted on punchstat. Its the reason why I give little to no credence to punchstat. I dont want to get into rediscussing the whole Chavez-Whitaker fight. .....but if you have the Showtime version, that whole crew was a joke. They had the fight about even after 10 rounds, then they claim robbery of the century when they announced the draw! They were even talking up controversy before the fight even ended. Fight crews like Showtime and HBO love to feed off of controversy.....it sells....and if there is'nt any controversy present, they make up something to be controversial about...... In the process, most who tune in to watch the fight know little about the nuances of the sport, and are brainwashed into believing everything spewed out of these broadcasters mouths. The same goes for print......I know alot of people who would say Whitaker was robbed vs Chavez just because they read the Sports Illustrated cover that read ROBBED! .....and btw, I think you have DLH confused with Chavez. I never heard Chavez say he would'nt fight Whitaker again. You never saw Chavez smile or jump for Joy as John Ruiz did when they announced a bogus draw in his third fight with Holyfield...... .....after the fight with Whitaker, I heard Chavez on several spanish stations claim that Whitaker was a tough nut to crack, "he was a very tricky guy who did alot of running and did'nt was'nt there to fight." were the words of Chavez. ....... but that he thought he pressed the fight enough for the win. Chavez was both dissapointed in his performance (he thought he could have done more) and the result! Ultimately Chavez went back to 140 lbs because he found out that his body could'nt properly and fully conditioned reach 147 lbs. Had Whitaker wanted Chavez again, he could have said so and stated, " I'll go down to 140 and whoop his ass.....but I never heard anything of the such from Pernell Whitaker......as we know, Whitaker stayed and ended his career as a Welter......Chavez as a Junior Welter. In Chavez' brief climbs back to 147 lbs, he looked undiciplined and out of shape!
Chavez was quoted as saying he wouldn't fight a southpaw, and no interest in facing Whitaker again. I just can't find the quote now, my apologies. They may have mentioned it in the prefight build up to Chavez vs. Randall. Taylor fought Chavez in 1990, I believe in March. I remember it being advertised on the Douglas vs. Tyson broadcast, and that was in February on 1990. Whitaker moved to 140 in 1992. They felt he was ready for Chavez by that time. It looked as though a deal could not be reached, and Whitaker challenged McGirt. I don't know what you are talking about with backward stepping, and simply touching with the jab. He beat Chavez up. He did more damage to him then Meldrick Taylor did. He landed more meaningful punches than Taylor did. Whitaker never looked close to folding against Chavez. He made Chavez look a little shaky though. Remember all those "...if he could punch... if he could punch, Bobby..." lines from Pacheco. That was around the time he put Chavez against the ropes, and unloaded on him.
I agree, Whitaker did unload some hurt on Chavez......it came pretty close after the round where Whitaker unloaded two advertent low blows.... Would you care to tell me in how many rounds Whitaker unloaded on Chavez in the manner you state????? I rest my case, you still have to judge the other 10 rounds, the fight does'nt end and a verdict given based on two rounds!!!:deal Since you've advised me to revisit the fight, I'll advise you to count the rounds in which Pernell Whitaker was in full retreat for nearly the entire round!