Why didn't Lewis face Ruiz and Byrd?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, May 9, 2024.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My comparison with Wills was just how meaningless the "he would have beaten him and wasn't afraid of him, I think" is. Not with Dempsey's many years of ducking. I have a hard time seeing how this could be that misunderstood.

    There haven't been an undisputed champion since Lewis. But the ducking from previous and later champions doesn't exonerate Lewis. And, again, Byrd was mandatory and even objectively likely the nr 1 contender (for The Ring for example I think).

    Not saying this was a duck of historic proportions. But again, haven't seen any good argument to call it anything other than a duck.

    I repeat "he wasn't afraid of him and would have beaten him, I think" is a very poor argument. That certainly goes for Baer-Braddock, Charles-Walcott, Patterson-Ingo, Liston-Ali, Ali-Spinks, Tyson-Douglas, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My, and a reasonable, criteria for a champion not defending against a willing challenger, is that at least one of three criteria must be met:

    1. Clear number 1 contender.
    2. Biggest available purse.
    3. Prevailing public opinion is the contender would win.

    If 1 of these crtieria is met, it likely can be reasonably argued as a duck of sorts.

    If 2 of the 3 criteria is met, its probably a duck.

    If all 3 are met, it's almost certainly a blatant duck.

    Byrd wasn't Lewis's number 1 contender. Wlad* was the #1 Ring ranked HW when Lewis fought Vitali.

    A Byrd fight wouldn't have represented the highest purse available to Lewis (a Tyson rematch likely would), or second highest (Wlad likely would), or third highest, and so on.

    There was no public interest in a Lewis vs Byrd fight. Had Lewis signed to defend vs Byrd he would have rightfully been a prohibitive favourite and likely would have faced criticism for his choice of challenger.

    Signing to fight another contender who fails to meet any of these 3 criteria (in this case Johmson) doesn't constitute a duck of any other contenders who also fail to meet any of these 3 criteria, imo. No champion defends against every contender and as I said, ABC belts and their mandatories likely meant relatively little to Lewis at this point, money (mostly) and legacy (secondary) were likely his sole concerns.

    Have you considered adding a poll to this thread? Even just for Byrd?

    Incidentally a better argument could be made for Lewis ducking Wlad (I don't think he did) than Byrd. Wlad was the no.1 contender, after filming together on Oceans 11 it would have caught the public opinion more, the purse would have been higher and whilst I would favour Lewis, Wlad would have been rightfully seen as a more dangerous challenger than Byrd.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The clear nr 1 should have been Byrd after Wlad was brutally KO'd by Sanders. He was also a mandatory. So that should meet your first criteria. The only one I'm really interested in personally.
     
  4. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Our pope is the Holy Spirit Full Member

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    I guess the name Tyson built Lewis's legacy better than the name Byrd.
     
  5. brianboruk

    brianboruk New Member Full Member

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    Its like asking why didnt Man city face Grimsby town
     
  6. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Fair point on Wlad's loss to Sanders. This site - https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2002 - lists Wlad the #1 Ring contender in the May 2003 issue (Lewis vs Vitali was June 2003), but with Sanders not in the top 10, it must have been formed before he stopped Wlad in March of that year.

    I dispute that Byrd was the clear 1 contender. Just 2 and a half years earlier Wlad beat Byrd in an extremely one sided fight and so Sanders had an obvious claim to be ranked ahead of Byrd, though admittedly I don't who the ring ranked #1 when Lewis fought Vitali.

    I do know that the boxing public and Lewis all saw Vitali as a much harder and more interesting fight than Byrd.
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It was the year after he dropped the WBC belt instead of facing Byrd. He had lots of time to face him after Tyson. But chose Johnson as his only defence that year.
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jesus. Bad take. You do understand that Byrd was the nr 1 contender?

    Try City choosing to defend their CL title against Man United instead of Real Madrid. No one would stand for that nonsense even if it was possible.
     
  9. brianboruk

    brianboruk New Member Full Member

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    W
    Well you just reinforced my post ,arent United the Grimsby town of the prem? cmon Byrd wasnt even fit to be cook Lennox's poached egg on toast
     
  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Otherwise he ducked Wlad, if you prefer. Johnson was nowhere near in any case.

    Even though 1 and 2 wasn't crystal clear, Byrd would have been a hard to question choice seeing how he was mandatory as well. But, sure, Wlad would perhaps have been respectable also. Strange to choose someone who has been brutally KO'd, though. So probably no.

    But he didn't choose any of them in any case.. He chose Johnson who was way behind both.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Are you drunk or just trolling? Bye in any case.
     
  12. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Actually, in pointing out Wlad had just lost to Sanders, you've convinced me Sanders has the best case for been ducked (though I don't think any one has a reasonable case for being ducked by Lewis).

    Wlad was #1 contender, rightfully ahead of Byrd, who he had arguably beaten 120-106, 12 rounds to 0 with 2 KD's in a terribly 1-sided fight, when Sanders beat him, so my guess is Sanders was the Ring's #1 contender when Lewis fought Vitali, with Wlad possibly #2. Sanders beating Wlad is justification for replacing him as the #1 contender, not for Byrd being ranked ahead the guy who dominated him to such an extent.

    Either way, if Lewis signing to defend against Johnson is a duck, then everytime a champion defends against anyone but the number 1 contender, they're ducking someone.
     
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, ihat's the long and short of it.

    That's why '58 was bad year for Patterson in this regard, '72 for Frazier, '83-'85 for Holmes etc.
     
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  14. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Fair enough, whilst personally I set the bar for what constitutes a duck higher, if your criteria to be met for a duck is a champion defending against anyone but the number 1 contender, then by your criteria Lewis definitely ducked someone, probably Sanders, when he signed to fight Johnson.
     
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  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'd say Byrd, who also was a mandatory. As quoted earlier in this thread, Lewis was asked why he didn't defend against him, which seems reasonable.

    But Sanders had a shout, yes. Does anyone have the Ring Ratings going into the fight?