Why do historians of all ages give Sonny Liston the shaft?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020.


Why do historians of all ages give Sonny Liston the shaft?

  1. Lack of wins over top opponents

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%

  2. They view him as a guy who took dives and cheated in other fights

    5 vote(s)
    33.3%

  3. Others were simply better

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%

  4. The upset loss to Marshall and the brutal KO Loss to Martin

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%

  5. A mix of all of the above

    7 vote(s)
    46.7%
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  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    A fair question, and it applies to the historians born before Liston who saw him and those after.

    Yet we hardly see him in top ten lists.

    I think Sonny is good enough for top 20, easily but I got back and forth on him like no other boxer.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    #1
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  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    His reputation never really recovered from the second Ali fight.

    Personally I have never found this reasoning entirely logical, but that is how people see it.

    Before the Ali fights he was viewed as perhaps another Joe Louis, and after some people ranked him beneath Max Baer!
     
    janitor, Mar 31, 2020
    janitor, Mar 31, 2020
    #2
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  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    He’s definitely worthy of top 20. But I don’t rate him top 10 on the simple bases that there are other fighters who I just feel are more deserving of those spots
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 31, 2020
    mr. magoo, Mar 31, 2020
    #3
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I think part of the legacy killer for Liston is he wasn't invited to the 1967 WBA heavyweight tournament. Clearly he was better the some who fought. Or was he simply too old? Frazier pulled out by the way. Martin was the sub in.


    "The WBA picked through the contenders and pretenders who remained in the wake of Ali and came up with the eight men most worthy, from the perspective of the WBA brain trust, of wearing the championship belt that had been taken from Ali. The original eight handpicked for the tournament were former champion Floyd Patterson; 1964 Olympic heavyweight champ Joe Frazier; hard-punching, granite-chinned Californian Jerry Quarry; colorful, hard-punching Argentinean Oscar Bonavena; German lefty Karl Mildenberger, who had put up a surprisingly stubborn fight against Ali the previous September; Ellis, who was given little chance of winning; former WBA champ Terrell; and the shifty, highly regarded Spencer.

    Former champ Sonny Liston was not invited to the party"
     
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    #4
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  5. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have him in my top 10. His short title reign probably has something to do with it along w the Ali fight shenanigans. As far as the title reign goes he basically beat The Who’s who of the time before he ever met Patterson except Ingo who he was scheduled to meet.
     
    Gazelle Punch, Mar 31, 2020
    Gazelle Punch, Mar 31, 2020
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Liston's resume of beating ranked contenders is rather thin. Assuming they were all ranked ( Which I think they were not at the time of the fight ) His best were Patterson 2x, Machen, Williams 2x, and Folley You could argue DeJohn or Valdes belong among the best five Sonny beat.

    This is solid work, but outside of Patterson who was a sitting duck, al la Mike Spinks, there's much else. Machen could be viewed as his 2nd best win, and Sonny didn't look good in that one. While he blasted Williams, he was also busted up in the process of doing it.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
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  7. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    A mix of options 1&2.

    Historians like to evaluate fighters based on tangible accomplishments: # of title defense, wins over future/past champs, etc. But since he was iced out for so long, and because his career got a late start he just doesn't have the resume his talent seems to have warranted.

    Anyone who doesn't respect Liston because he lost to Marshall when he was basically a novice deserves to be slapped.
     
    The Funny Man 7, Mar 31, 2020
    The Funny Man 7, Mar 31, 2020
    #7
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  8. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Do you double as Charlief?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
    The Morlocks, Mar 31, 2020
    The Morlocks, Mar 31, 2020
    #8
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  9. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

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    Never quite understood this myself
     
    Richmondpete, Mar 31, 2020
    Richmondpete, Mar 31, 2020
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  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    No.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    Mendoza, Mar 31, 2020
    #10
  11. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When I watch Liston on film, Prior to Ali, I see everything I want to see in a Heavyweight champ. Skills ? Yes. Power? Yes. Toughness? Yes. Size? Yes. Aggression? Yes.
    Why do historians view Liston negatively? I believe #1 Ali-2 Fight, #2 mob connections. #3 Liston wasn't a media darling when he was creating havoc in boxing rings.# 4 A short reign at the top. It's easier to overlook his talent because of those 4 factors I mentioned.
    But the talent was their. I personally don't see any heavyweight beating him until possibly Frazier in 68". And that is probably a pick-em Fight. Liston would match up favorably to Frazier.
    But unfortunately for Liston, as well as Frazier, Foreman , Terrell, Ellis, Mathis, and a number of other fighters that were, or could've been a champion they came along with Ali.
     
    Flash24, Mar 31, 2020
    Flash24, Mar 31, 2020
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  12. surfinghb1

    surfinghb1 Member Full Member

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    If a Historian wants to start ripping me at the age of 34 and after , I will take that as a compliment … I agree with the above post ^^^
     
    surfinghb1, Mar 31, 2020
    surfinghb1, Mar 31, 2020
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  13. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Excellent way to put it. Liston makes my top ten comfortably.
     
    swagdelfadeel, Mar 31, 2020
    swagdelfadeel, Mar 31, 2020
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  14. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Does Liston really have a top ten resume?

    While anyone might have lost to Ali, how many flopped so badly in their biggest historical fights? If he had pushed Ali to the limit but come up short, that would have been one thing. But an indifferent performance followed by quitting on his stool, and then a total flop of such proportions that his defenders are forced into defending him by saying he took a dive.

    And getting into the top ten is getting harder and harder as the years roll by and more great careers are established. How high should victories over Patterson, Machen, Folley, Harris, Williams, and Valdes put him against other ATG candidates.

    Is there anything wrong with historians evaluating fighters on tangible accomplishments?
     
    Jason Thomas, Mar 31, 2020
    Jason Thomas, Mar 31, 2020
    #14
  15. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Actually think it’s getting harder for these modern guys to crack a top ten. No one fights each other anymore in fear of getting a loss. Hence bad resumes for the top three four guys now
     
    Gazelle Punch, Mar 31, 2020
    Gazelle Punch, Mar 31, 2020
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