Why do people discount peoples records once they’re past a certain point

Some guys clearly past their best can still operate at a decent level. There are a lot of factors to consider though.

As far as the Pinklon Thomas example that was cited would go, I think he would be viewed more like like Ibeabuchi. Ibeabuchi really had what was described here, he had a couple of good wins and that was it for his career. He will forever be a "what if" and we can speculate on how he would do against Lewis and Klitschko's but never know. I don't think many consider Ibeabuchi should be rated above Charles, even with the large amount of losses Charles received at the end of his career.

Jones operated at a very high level for a long while, he also had a long period where he soldiered on and took losses that it would be hard to fathom him taking in his prime.

If Floyd or Lennox fought multiple times a year until they were 49 I would expect them to start taking in some L's. While I would be saddened to see them take unnecessary punishment into their 40s I would not hold it against them in regards to their legacies.

 

I always thought Stan Harrington was deeply relevant to how great we assess Sugar Ray Robinson to be.

 

But there’s a world of difference between pretending that they didn’t happen, and just seeing them for what they were.


Let’s say that me and you both agree that Floyd is a top 20 ATG.

Let’s say that he signs a 5 fight deal with Showtime until next year.

Let’s say that in 18 months time, he’s won 2 of the fights, drawn one, and then been brutally schooled and knocked out in the other 2.

In 18 months time, I would still rank him as being a top 20 ATG.

How on earth could I change my opinion, if he’d come back into the sport, way past his best at 44 years old, after 4 years out of the ring??

How could you change your ranking of him?

You couldn’t.

You’d simply KNOW that the reason he lost was because he was 44-45 years old, and was a mere shell of the guy he’d once been.


What I’m doing isn’t stupid.

I’ve been a boxing fan for 30 years.

As you know, boxing has many levels to it.


When it’s clear that a former great is losing to guys who have never in their entire careers been top level, world class fighters, then any losses to guys of that ilk, can’t mean a damn thing.

Again, yes, it affects their rep. Yes, it’s embarrassing. But when evaluating their career and ranking them, those sorts of losses wouldn’t mean a damn thing. Because you wouldn’t be questioning whether your initial opinion of them held up. You would simply KNOW that the only reason that they lost is simply because they were so old and washed up.

 

this shouldn't even be up for debate if one understand how to apply proper context.

 

They were LOSSES.

Do you count the win Manny had against Keith Thurman as a yet another positive in his career? Then the loss to Ugas is a negative.

You don't get to pick which COUNTS. They both COUNT. He signed to fight both times. He won one. He lost the other. One is a win. One is a loss.

Everyone knows he was better at 32 than 42, but he's still fighting and his career is still going on. So, when I rate him all-time, I include his WHOLE career. I don't stop at 32. Because then you don't get to include the Cotto and Hatton and Margarito wins. But, if you're going to include them, you have to include the losses, too.

Are all of you living in a fantasy world at all times

I judge ALL fighters based on their careers AS A WHOLE.

You guys only seem to judge SOME fighters based on their careers as a whole, but cut slack for others you hold in higher esteem.

 

The proper context is he signed to fight a pro boxing match, he got paid for it, he wanted everyone to come out and pay money to buy tickets and order PPVS, and when he wins his FANS want him to get credit. And when he loses, his fans want him everyone to IGNORE it because he isn't prime.

If you want the positives when you win, you get the negatives when you lose. That's the PROPER context.

 

There's a two freakin year span between the KT and Ugus fights.....why do you try to lump them together regarding their meaning?? I mean, how dense can you be?

 

WTF does this even mean??? Look...I know you get beat up here over your love for Wilder...made you something of a bitter poster it looks

 

And I WOULD NOT. Especially if he lost to really bad fighters.

Roy Jones' fall in how he was viewed all-time, when he went from 49-1 to 49-4 ... was HUGE!!!!

How Roy Jones was viewed by the boxing public when he stepped out of the ring against Ruiz to when he stepped in the ring against Prince Badi Ajamu couldn't have been more stark.

The fall was enormous.

I've been a boxing fan for 46 years. And I view their records in their entirety. And every time Floyd Mayweather steps in the ring to collect a check, his reputation is on the line.

And if he'd have walked out there against a YOUTUBER and got wasted in a round or two, you are goddamn right his reputation WOULD CRASH.

In a MINUTE.

If he got knocked cold by TWO YOUTUBERS, it would be "Mayweather Who?"

Especially from fans who despise him.

I was never a fan of Floyd Mayweather. But I recognize his achievements. I recognize Manny's achievements. Just like I recognized Roy's achievements. And Evander's achievements.

But when you are legend, you better not climb in the ring and embarrass yourself. That's it.

And you can keep repeating on and on that losses late in a career don't matter, but not A DAMN ONE OF YOU still rate Roy Jones like you rated him when he was 49-1 and had basically dominated everyone he faced.

Every cringe-inducing loss, every time you had to explain to people how good he "used to be" when he was flattened, every time he looked like garbage ... it took something away.

It does to all of them. Especially when they are highly visible losses.

Old timers used to be able to lose a bunch and people didn't see them. Now they do.

We can all see them. They all count. There's no hiding.

So if you DON'T want the fights to count, don't get in the ring and fight.

 

Well he knows Wilder will be no where near anybody's top 50 after he gets embarrassed by fury again.

 

Honestly, I’m at a complete loss.

Is it not common sense to see and know when a fighter is completely shot?

Duran rocks up at 50 doing something that he loves, but it can’t be ignored.

Ha!

It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

Sure, we can’t pretend that it simply never happened. But how can it have any relevance whatsoever?

I’ve never conversed with a fan who’d even give it a seconds thought.

 

Another example, Ingo didn't really soldier on way past his best and take a bunch of losses. When he's ranked amongst other heavy champs he's ranked based on what we saw and what he accomplished. Do we rank him higher than guys like Jack Johnson, Ezzard Charles, Mike Tyson etc because they have a bunch of L's at the end of their career and past their best? Do we weigh Berbicks win over Ali when comparing him to Ingo?

When guys like Pac pull up a good win past their best its impressive because they won despite being way past their best.

 

When are you going to catch on, Jesus.

 

You still don’t get it.

I’m not saying that they don’t count. I’m simply saying that when a fighter is losing to guys below world class level, or they’re getting easily beaten by C level guys when they’re completely washed up, then they simply have no relevance to anything.

How do you not understand that!?

Yes, I do get to chose which is relevant and what isn’t. Why? Because I have a brain in my head and I’ve been watching boxing for over 30 years.

Losing at world level is different to losing below world level.

Manny could possibly comeback and beat another world level fighter.

Even in losing, he’s still clearly a world level fighter.

This recent loss wouldn’t affect my overall ranking of him, but yes, a loss at world level needs to be taken into account. So although it wouldn’t make any difference to me personally, I can understand why you’d mark Manny down for it. I have no issue with that. But when you’re talking about Roy losing to Enzo Mac and Duran showing up fat in his 40’s and 50’s, where they were both clearly no longer world level fighters anymore, then that’s a different scenario altogether.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s pretty easy to work out what you’re looking at. It’s nothing to do with bias.

Yes, Mike Tyson’s loss to Kevin McBride COUNTS. It’s an official loss. But if you’re evaluating his career, the only thing you’d note about that is how sad it was. It would not and could not change anybody’s prior opinion of him. It could not affect where you rank him historically. It wouldn’t be the difference between moving him up and down, on whether it had happened or not. Get real.

It’s like saying that if Mike Tyson hadn’t have lost to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride, then someone could have ranked him as their no. 8 HW of all time. But because that he did, they now only rank him as their no 10. HW of all time.

That would be ridiculous.

If that really happened somewhere in the world, then I despair.

The Douglas loss hurts his legacy.

The Holyfield losses hurt his legacy.

The Lewis win shouldn’t affect things too much.

However, the losses to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride don’t mean a damn thing.

Yes, again, they happened.

We cannot pretend that they didn’t.

However, any sensible fan wouldn’t give them a seconds thought, as they’d know that he was completely and utterly shot at that point, where he only signed up to fight 2 career European level HW’s, because he was so desperate for the cheques at the time. It was a man who was desperate who felt compelled to fight. He had zero desire. Zero motivation. He just took the fights because he had to. Seeing him quit against McBride, where he was slumped on the floor was one of the saddest things I’ve seen in boxing. But you’re going to come on here and say that the loss is relevant and it has to be evaluated and put under the microscope with everything else that he did?

Have a word with yourself.

If you’re going to reply, you can tell me how you’d feel if my Floyd Mayweather scenario played out.

 

None forgets nothing.

Only that passed their pick some great fighters have continued to fight ONLY FOR MONEY...losing many bouts ( Ali, Holyfield, Tyson, Mercer are good samples).

The same other less talented collegues.