Why do people discount peoples records once they’re past a certain point

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by JordanK2406, Aug 24, 2021.

  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I understand your thought process.

    I understand it’s their choice.

    I get that.

    I get that you have more respect for someone who goes out at the top instead of embarrassing themselves.

    Again, I get that these losses have to count and that they can’t be erased. But again, at some stage, you have to simply see them for what they are.

    All losses count. But not all losses affect a fighters legacy.

    They can affect a fighters reputation, but they can’t all affect their legacies.

    The circumstances are important.

    You couldn’t rank Ali higher than you do if he hadn’t have lost to Trevor Berbick. Nobody would do such a thing.

    Again, I’m not asking you to ignore them. But if Floyd Mayweather comes back at 49 and gets beaten, it cannot affect his ranking.

    It can tarnish his reputation, but it cannot tarnish and affect his legacy. Because no knowledgeable fan would see it as anything other than Floyd missing the limelight.

    It would simply have no relevance. It would have no importance. It would just be a faded fighter looking for a high after being retired for years. It would simply be overlooked and put down to ego. Nobody would move Floyd up or down their rankings because of it.

    It would be classed as an irrelevant loss.
     
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You can’t just rate a fighter who went out at the top over a guy who tarnished his reputation by fighting on too long.

    Is that what you’re saying?

    Please clarify your position.

    You have to look at many other factors too.

    Although it’s horrible seeing fighters lose past their best, you still have to be objective and evaluate what they did in their prime.

    You can cry all you want about looking at their entire careers, but what they did in their prime years trumps everything else. And you could only rate the guy who retired on top higher, if he’d actually had a better career.

    You can’t ignore a fighters skillset, who they beat and at what point, as well as their accomplishments.

    So the fighter who retired at the right time, could only be rated higher than the faded legend who embarrassed himself, only if he deserved to be there. He couldn’t be there just on the grounds that he got out at the top. You can’t rate people like that.

    Roy Jones rates higher than Joe Calzaghe.

    Roberto Duran rates higher than Joe Calzaghe and Andre Ward.
     
  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mike Tyson was 38 years old when he stunk out the joint and basically quit against McBride.

    Foreman won the heavyweight title at 45. At 42, Larry Holmes beat Ray Mercer. At 41, Vitali Klitschko made his last defense against Charr and stopped Chris Arreola in a title defense at 39. Holyfield beat Ruiz for a belt at 38. At 38, Wlad Klitschko manhandled Alexander Povetkin in a title fight.

    If you're rating those guys against Mike Tyson all time, why in the hell wouldn't a 38-year-old Tyson quitting against McBride impact where he stood all-time?

    If a 38-year-old Foreman quit against McBride, his entire comeback would've ended right there and no comeback for George certainly would've had an impact on his standing. If Vitali had defended against that scrub McBride and QUIT like Tyson did, I doubt he would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

    When rating guys all time, it all matters.

    Hell, if Vitali would've quit in his last title defense at 41 against Charr, that would change how he's viewed. If Wlad would've quit like Tyson did against McBride, and that would change how he's viewed.

    Why on earth should we not include Tyson quitting against McBride? It happened. That's how his career ended. It was pretty bad. It didn't outweigh all the positive accomplishments in his career, but it certainly had a negative impact.
     
  4. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    You can say that, it doesnt mean it has any logical basis though.

    Judging a fighters bad with their good comes when they are still competing near their true fighting forms.

    Judging a fighters bad when they are beyond their expereration date is rather meaningless. Literally.
     
  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Get real man.

    Every fighter ages differently, depending on their styles and their circumstances.

    You know this.

    Again, winning and losing at world level is a completely different scenario altogether.

    It doesn’t matter if there’s been fighters who were world class or who were champions at a later age than when Mike fought McBride. That is completely irrelevant.

    Mike was shot when he fought McBride. He wasn’t there either physically or mentally.

    Once again, both Danny Williams and Kevin McBride were European level fighters their whole careers.

    Both of those fighters literally weren’t world class operators. And I use the word ‘literally’ in its relevant context.

    So Mike lost to a European level fighter in Danny Williams in 2004, showing the entire boxing world that he was completely washed up.

    If a former great fighter can’t beat a European level fighter, then they have nothing left to give. Nothing.

    Then after losing to Williams, Mike fought another European level fighter in Kevin McBride. He was then so shot that he quit.

    You’re seriously going to come on here and tell me that that loss in 2005 was relevant and it can’t be in any way overlooked.

    Ha!

    Have a word with yourself FFS.

    I’m not asking you to feel sympathy for him. But nobody sees that as a relevant loss.

    You’re talking absolute nonsense.

    He shouldn’t have even been in the ring at that stage, which is why he said he no longer wanted to disgrace the sport, and why he’s never come back.

    It was simply a desperate man trying to pay his bills, because his life was in complete chaos.

    You’re just being completely ridiculous.

    It cannot affect his ranking or his legacy.

    Apart from it being highly cringeworthy and embarrassing, no fan even gives it a seconds thought.

    It is not a relevant loss.

    The circumstances have to matter.

    It cannot affect his overall ranking.

    You are crazy.
     
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  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Every fighter ages differently, which is why I judge their careers as a whole.

    Some mature earlier. Some later. Some leave the ring at 38 quitting against Kevin McBride, like Tyson.

    Some go out at 41 with a successful defense against Charr, like Vitali

    And some go out on top after cutting Vitali to shreds and stopping him in six.

    Some never avenge a loss, like Tyson and Vitali. Some avenge them all, like Lewis.

    You judge careers based on the whole thing.

    Good and bad.

    There is nothing crazy about that
     
  7. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I’m simply saying that there’s relevant losses and irrelevant losses.

    Not all losses are relevant.

    If Floyd lost next year it couldn’t be a damaging and relevant loss.

    Do you rate Calzaghe higher than Roy?
     
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  8. Aussie Invader

    Aussie Invader Boxing Addict Full Member

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    fighters fighting late in their career, like pac on the weekend, doesn't harm their legacy for me.
    i'd just rather see them retire, and even though it's a badge of honour for ugas, you have to keep the win in context.

    does anyone really laud danny green for KO'ing roy jones in 1? i hope not.
     
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  9. JordanK2406

    JordanK2406 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not to me because it’s there choice to carry on and it’s them adding to there legacy. A defeat to someone when they’re beyond their expiration date may not have a big impact on there legacy but it’ll be there. I’m just saying you can’t just cut things out when talking about a fighters career
     
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  10. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Luckily it's only a couple of guys who don't get what everyone else already understands.
     
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  11. Pimp C

    Pimp C Free The Guys! F 12 & Goofies Stay Dangerous! Full Member

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    If fighters want to take credit for fights they win late in their careers then they have to take some criticism when they lose late as well. That's the way it works.
     
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  12. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Then you'll agree Leon Spinks > SRL because Leon has the single greater win. Isn't that the argument you were going on about for 30 pages??
     
  13. Pimp C

    Pimp C Free The Guys! F 12 & Goofies Stay Dangerous! Full Member

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    Hell no because SRL had many atg wins not just one he beat four atgs and Leon beat one.
     
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  14. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Addict Full Member

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    oohh.... so it's NOT about a best single win that you were going on and on about....
    :lol:
     
  15. Pimp C

    Pimp C Free The Guys! F 12 & Goofies Stay Dangerous! Full Member

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    I said SRL had better wins than Pac which is true. He has 3 wins over elite ATGS Pac doesn't. He has wins over 3 elite ATGS and 1 win over Benitez who's an ATG. Try and keep up Lance not the same thing.
     
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