why do people put duran ahead of pac on atg list???

Good post yet I think that partying and Duran weight gain stuff is overrated. Duran would have lost to Ray no matter what in the rematch like he did to Ray in the rubbermatch. Ray was faster and took all Duran had in the first fight. Ray knew what he had to do and he said later, he took it all and he was still standing. He was going to beat Duran at his game this time.

I like fighters also, but as for ATG ranking, having a brawler like Barkley as ATG will not happen. It is exciting, but it will not get a guy in the ATG ranking, fighting and beating ATGs will do that I think .


The fact Duran fought until 50 is a good point, but it also shows how he fought for 17 years after the Hearns knockout. He was not finished in 1984 when Hearns knocked him out, Tommy just beat a fellow 154 pount titlist.

 

I never said Duran was ranked top 3 ATG at WW, I said Leonard is, gotta learn to read my friend.

 

Well certainly Duran's losses should count against him, but at the same time he was fighting guys who are far bigger than him and win-lose or draw, for most of his career he left everything on the table. I think SRL would have beaten him regardless of whether or not he showed up in shape and I think Hearns would have won too, these are size and style issues. But put it into perspective. Today perhaps you could put Hearns into a Paul Williams category and Leonard, well there's nobody like him currently. So it would be like Pac fighting and lossing to Paul Williams and beating someone much better than Floyd, (I think most would agree that Floyd would lose to SRL) then giving Pavik all he could handle in a losing cause. That's basically what Duran did.

 

You must be new here. The excuses for Duran are constant...and very tiring.

I don't know to many credible sources that claim Barrera was past it in 2003. He didn't perform very well, but that was as a result of Pacquiao's onslaught. Again, you must be new here, Leonard gets an absolute pasting about the Hagler fight. I mean, Pacquiao wasn't coming off a three year lay off to fight a man who'd not lost in 11 years, Ray did...and he still gets criticised. Spellbinding.

They both get the same treatment. Even though we credit as Pacquiao as having beaten a close to prime Marco Antonio Barrera, he still doesn't come close to being rated over Duran for the reasons I've reiterated in abundance. The Oscar fight, come on, you can try and convince yourself that Oscar was a good fighter that night...but it's just wishful thinking.

:-( Again, I don't know too many credible sources who put to much stock in the weight drained claims of Diego Corrales. The knowledgable Boxing fans won't be looking on Boxrec and draw their conclusions exclusively through that, they'll use common sense and look at the whole picture, with modern fighters...and with older fighters. Leonard's third fight with Duran is meaningless, people admit that Hagler showed rust in the Mugabi fight.

 

Its all depends on the proven quality of opposition: SRL, Hearns,
Haggler, Benitez they are all well defined fighters in terms of the quality.

It is hard to say where will be Hatton or Cotto in the next few years.
Lets see for example Taylor, he was pretty high after beating Hopkins but where is he now?

Also the guys like Dawson or Williams are high now but where will be
Dawson if a few guys expose his chin or where will be Williams if he
will not prove anything above 154lb?

So the good comparison of PAC against other former ATG with
similar resume may be done a few years after PAC retires.

 

Look Bro this is the 2nd time I am correcting you on boxing facts[or make it 3rdbecause you still didnt figure it out last time]
Obviously you are not aware of who is in the IBHOF . I was not refering to Barkley or Moore. I have enought knowledge of the Sweet Science to know than they are not in :roll: I was talking about Pipino Cueveas and Palomino. It makes it even harder to read your opinions on Duran and the rest of the fab 4 when you cant even get your facts straight.

 

That is what happens when you move up in weight and fight, you more than likely fight bigger guys. And most greats have done it and they win or else they are not ATGs or top ATGs anyway. Spinks moved up 2 divisions and fought Holmes.

Hearns moved up and beat Andries and Hill for two different titles at 175, but since he was tall enough, some fans think he should have beaten those bigger guys. Not everything is height. Tyson was 5-11 and heavyweight as we all know. What is the big deal about fighters moving up and being smaller? That is the challenge, and Duran still lost to the legends, but he did beat Moore and Barkley, but those guys are not great.

Being a top 10 ATG would mean Duran would have to beat them all, and he didn't. Duran left everything on the table? Yeah his style was exciting, but my whole point here is about ATG and where he should be ranked. And no it isn't like Pacman fighting Williams. Pacman did not weigh 180 between fights and he is a smaller man than Duran, and like I have stated over and over again Duran fought at 154 pounds before Hearns and Leonard ever did, that is significant. Iran Barkley was almost as tall as Hearns and Duran did fine against him, it is that Hearns was just too quick for Duran.

 

you're implying that Duran's natural weight is 180lbs and he regularly fought at 154 during his career, so I don't know what to say.

 

I am saying Duran walked around at 180 in the years about 1980 or 1981, and he did fight tuneups at 154 as far back as 1978. Beyond that, I don't know what else you can make out of what I am saying.

 

That's simply not true, at least with me. I always bring everything into consideration when bringing up an opponent's resume.

I always bring that into consideration, which is why I don't rate that win nearly as highly as Duran's win over him earlier in the year.

Who is "we"?

Trie, but I had personally had JMM beating Pac in the rematch (the first I actually did have a draw) and Leonard edging out Hagler, though I've not seen the fight in ages.

Name some of the legitimate excuses for Duran's opposition that I named above.

I rate both that and the Jones/Toney performance quite highly, regardless of their opponent's supposed condition. They both performed good enough on those nights to convince me that they'd have always beaten their relative opponents handily.

As long as you do your research you will know about these things. You're generalizing now. I can assure you that doesn't apply to me. I'll typically bring these things up if they're relevant.

There were no excuses for the Hatton or Cotto fight, or the David Diaz fight. The only excuse is that Pac was simply a better fighter than any of those guys, but then again none of them (including Cotto, IMO) was really that good a fighter in the first place. Not by all time standards. Guys like Buchanan and De Jesus were much better in my eyes. What stands out about Pac's performance is that he's able to consistently hold his ability through the weights. My only gripe is that he never conclusively proves himself against the best in the division, barring Hatton who was the worst long-reigning champ in the division's history. He never really beat the best fighter he ever faced in Marquez, though the Cotto win is seen as better because it was at a higher weight.

Pacquiao is a weight-jumping marvel, and that's what I see him as. Not the best at any particular weight but a guy who is able to hold his ability and compete at the top level throughout the weights. Definitely an all time great with what he's accomplished, but the actual depth of his resume against quality opposition is far overblown, even if we do take away all of the excuses. At least in comparison to the elite all time greats.

 

This thread has become everyone vs. mag1965, and he is holding his own and stating facts. This boards is getting redundant. Do you mag or anyone else have anything new to say? I personally think he is right a little, and my guy Pernell would have beat Duran but not stop him. I wouldn't go that far.

 

Floyd is great. When will people start seeing that?

 

like you told him he doensnt know how to read you dont know how to read either. :yep

 

Taylor is at a crossroad