Why do people say Johnson v Ketchel was staged?

It was meant to be staged, apparently. The first knockdown could've been an accident, but again there's not much evidence to support either theory.

 

The bout could not have been staged for TV since it took place in 1909, quite a while before the advent of TV, however in the same vein I have heard that both Johnson and Ketchel had agreed to let the bout go twenty rounds for the sake of filming the bout and the profits that could have been made by it. (The ban on fight films did not happen until after the Johnson-Jeffries fight and resultant riots.)

Largely because of problems with filming fights in the old days, sometimes the fight would be recreated by actors for films to be shown to the public. I have seen a reproduction of the first Fitzsimmons-Jeffries fight with actors. The "Fitz" actor was bald like the real Fitz. I have heard that the last round of the Jeffries-Sharkey 1899 title fight was re-filmed the following day with the real fighters.

I have seen excerpts of the film of Johnson-Ketchel where it looked like Johnson was on the verge of dropping Ketchel and holding him up so that he would not fall. He may have employed this same tactic against Fireman Jim Flynn as well. This tactic would definitely lend credence to the belief that Johnson was deliberately prolonging the fight.

Regarding the 12th round of the Johnson-Ketchel bout, it appeared to me that the blow that decked Johnson was at best a glancing blow. How legitimate it was is hard to say, but the KO of Ketchel certainly looked real and reinforced what has been said about many of Johnson's fights at the time that he could end them any time he wanted.

 

IMO, a real fight but with Johnson obviously carrying Ketchel, for sadistic and film purposes.

I also personally don’t believe that Ketchel’s overhand right landed - I think it did take the relaxed Johnson by surprise and that he basically slipped in his 11th hour duck to avoid the punch which appeared to slip over the back of his neck.

Still enough to p*ss Johnson off who then, imo, feigned being hurt in his deliberately slow rise from the canvas - within a split second Jack was fine to pole axe Stanley.

The legitimacy of the KD at the time was questioned my more than a few in attendance.

Have to say though, Johnson always acknowledged the KD to be legit - though Jack was a strange one - always finding some motive to tell some porky pies.

I could speculate that his saying the KD was legit would serve to promote the films - perhaps he acknowledged the KD falsely for that fact alone, shortly after the fight and then remained with the story.

 

Johnson had a substantial bet that the fight would not go past14 rds and told his friends to wager accordingly,he carried Ketchel long enough to make the film rights worth watching.

I once had a bet on here that the Fitz v Ruhlin NY fight was not filmed, it was scheduled to be, but the camera did not work. A re-enactment was staged with the real fighters, Ruhlin wearing stage make -up to hide his bruises.The re-enactment was advertised as the real fight and people happily paid to watch it,then some one noticed that Jim Corbett,who had been Ruhlin's chief second was not in the corner for the fake fight ,having gone back to San Francisco and the fraud was discovered.
I produced quotes from historians like Gilbert Odd,,and Adam Pollack,and posters such as Ted Spoon and Klompton, that confirmed the real fight was not filmed,but this poster,who is no longer with us, refused to honour the bet, he stated that Ted Spoon a fine poster had told him that the fight was filmed ,I contacted Ted and he denied ever speaking to this man.
Anyway, the upshot was that this poster's get out was the re-enactment counted as the fight being filmed.
One Jeffries fight ,I think it may well be the second Fitz bout, was due to be filmed but
I believe Jeffries objected because of the heat the overhead lights created,he and Sharkey had had a terrible experience boxing under low slung Krieg lights in their second fight during which Jeffries head was badly blistered from the heat.
I've seen posts on forums in which posters solemnly state the fake Jeffries v Fitz fight you mention ,is the real thing!
How anyone could be deceived into thinking it was is beyond me!

 

I think Johnson is going down before the punch arrives.

 

Totally agree. As the punch is coming, Johnson turns away, lowers his head and also let’s his lead left leg bend beneath him to cause his decent and the punch slides over the neck/back of his head.

What do you make of that though? Deliberate fall to fake a KD or simply an evasion gone wrong - in so far as it causing Johnson to accidentally fall without actually being hit?

I think the latter. Here’s nice slo mo vision.


https://youtube.com/shorts/aPR8F37dH8Q?feature=share

 

Gun Boat Smith, Johnson's sparring partner for the fight stated Johnson pulled a fake KD and I'm inclined to believe it.

 

His friends must've been pissed

 

A lot of good information here that I had not been aware of, like Johnson's bet and the Fitz-Ruhlin re-enactment. Thanks! And I would disagree with that poster that the re-enactment counted as the fight being filmed - a big stretch at best but it would still be interesting to see. Regarding the fake Jeffries vs Fitz fight, the only similarity I could see with the real fighters was the hairline of the Fitz fighter.

 

Lol, yes they didn’t go out of their way to find actors who bore reasonable resemblance - they just grabbed a dime a dozen balding guy to play Fitz.

Otherwise, they used to reenact their famous KOs live on the vaudeville stage - and I’m guessing that the re-enactments were likely far more dramatic and self serving than the actual KOs - ala the Rocky treatment, lol.

 

Thanks for your take Mc. Yes, I’ve read Smith’s opinion on that. There were also claims that the KD was rehearsed in sparring between Smith and Johnson.

I don’t think that came from Smith himself though, just from an observer - and I think it was speculated that the claim of Johnson being KO’d by Smith was a misinterpretation or embellishment of one of those KD rehearsals.

For his part, I know Smith only ever claimed to have knocked Johnson partially through the ropes, no more, no less - clearly not a KD per se.

The old timers with their claims and testimonies that don’t corroborate certainly gave us a lot of investigating and crime solving to do. Half the fun. Lol.

 

Well its indisputable that Johnson carried Ketchel literally and figuratively. I mean more than once when Ketchel was going to the canvas Johnson literally grabs him under the arms and scoops him up like he was a little kid to keep him from going down off a legitimate punch. The knockdown Ketchel scored on Johnson looks like a bad dive. Johnson is already going down when the punch is started and it loops around Johnson's head. It doesnt help Johnson's case that he tried to say the punch hurt his jaw when it can be clearly seen that it doesnt land on his jaw and most ringside accounts state the fight looked fishy. If the thing looks fishy live where people can see the fighters reactions close up, hear the punches, etc and on camera then you can bet something was off about it. I tend to be of the opinion that Johnson toyed with Ketchel and carried him in order to make the film of the fight longer and to make Ketchel seem more competitive. This would make the film more marketable and Johnson had an ownership stake in the film so he had an interest in it being as marketable as possible.

 

The Gunboat Smith-Jack Johnson sparring session where Smith knocked Johnson through the ropes was covered by the press and described in detail. No sleuthing needed. It wasnt a knockout and it wasnt an exhibition regardless of how bad Mendoza wishes it were.