Why do people think Marciano had such a great chin?

From what I read Charles beat him up when he wasn't giving rounds away. "Dominated" was a poor choice of words though, just annoyed by the Hurrican Jackson fanboyism...of all the fighters?

 

I used to have "scribbled notes" from a member of Charles entourage who saw the Jackson-Charles fights live. Unfortunately I cannot find it. I do remember he had Jackson winning the first fight, but Charles winning the second.

 

"who was a blown up LH"

This is the ratings for the lightheavyweight division.

If Schoppner only lost 1 fight in his whole career, how do you know he is so mediocre? Doug Jones did not beat him when they fought.

 

Two flash knockdowns in 49 pro fights (vs. Walcott I and Moore). Never in serious trouble thruout those 49 fights... due to his chin letting him down anyway. He was able to drop the fighters who dropped him (multiple times) and stop them both. He was in trouble vs. Charles II (split-nose) but it had nothing to do with his chin.

 

He dropped Moore 5 times and stopped him in 9. Marciano dominated teh fight with the exception of getting dropped early

 

Doug Jones was on a three fight losing streak (and not a huge name to begin with) when he travelled to Germany and got a draw against Schoppner. Now you can damn well bet that if Jones got a draw in Germany he deserved to win that fight. Schoppner had only three other recognizable names on his record: Peter Mueller, an ex welterweight/middleweight long past his best, Henry Cooper who lost via DQ (and you can guess how that happened), and Rinaldi who defeated him in his only fight outside of Germany in what should have been Schoopners prime. Some on here will mention Von Clay and Albert Westphal but neither of them ever defeated a top fighter and both are only remembered for their losses, not their wins.

 

Well, let's look at Schoppner's career. His final record was 34-1-5 (16). He was never stopped.

Placements in lightheavyweight division in yearly Ring Magazine rankings:

1957-----#10
1958-----#4
1959-----#2
1960-----#3
1961-----#5
1962-----#7

Top opponents and yearly rankings by Ring Magazine

2-3-1957--Albert Finch-----won 10 (Finch #8 LH in 1955)

10-12-1957--Artemio Calzavara----- won 10 (Calzavara #6 LH in 1957)

2-22-1958--Willi Hoepner-----ko 1 (Hoepner #9 LH in 1953, #9 LH in 1954, #4 LH in 1955, #10 LH in 1956, #5 LH in 1957)

4-19-1958--Henry Cooper-----DQ 6 (Cooper rated 7 times at heavy between 1958 and 1970, peaking at #4)

11-8-1958--Chuck Spieser-----tko 6 (Spieser #5 LH in 1955, #2 LH in 1956, #7 LH in 1957)

12-12-1958--Willie Hoepner-----ko 5 (Schoppner won Euro & German LH titles)

11-5-1959--Santo Amonti-----won 15 (Amonti #10 LH in 1959)

1-22-1960--Germinal Ballarin-----Draw 10 (Ballarin #10 LH in 1960)

2-13-1960--Mike Holt-----Draw 10 (Holt #6 LH in 1958, #3 LH in 1959, #7 LH in 1960)

11-26-1960--Clarence Hinnant-----won 10 (Hinnant #8 LH in 1957)

4-8-1961--Peter Mueller-----won 10 (Mueller fought in the US in the mid-fifties. I think he beat Tiger Jones, but I remember him losing to Giardello and Basilio-He was not one of Schoppner's best opponents, off the ratings)

9-9-1961--Albert Westphal-----won 10 (won German heavyweight title-Westphal never in yearly Ring ratings)

11-11-9161-Hans Kalbfell-----won 10 (Kalbfell was never world rated, but ko'd Hurricane Jackson, Heinz Neuhaus, and the then undefeated Mimo Bozzano, as well as Westphal)

9-29-1962--Doug Jones-----draw 10 (Jone #7 LH in 1960, #3 LH in 1961, then #3 heavy in 1962, #2 heavy in 1963, #10 heavy in 1964, #8 heavy in 1965)

1-26-1963--Von Clay-----Won 10 (Clay #4 LH in 1959, #9 in 1961)

5-23-1963--Giulio Rinaldi--lost 15

*His biggest wins were probably the ko's of Hoepner and Spieser.

**Jones--I don't know how big a name Jones was supposed to be, but he got plenty of writeups, was spoken of as the heir apparent to the aging Moore and Johnson, and had ko'd Bobo Olson, among others and gotten to the #2 contender spot behind only Moore and Johnson. It is true he had lost his last three fights coming into the one with Schoppner, to Eddie Machen, Harold Johnson, and Zora Folley, all top men at the time. In the two fights after drawing with Schoppner, he ko'd Bob Foster and Folley.

Von Clay--I don't know whom you consider a top man--Clay's biggest win was a decision over the #2 rated Chic Calderwood, who was 29-0 at the time and boasted wins over future champion Willie Pastrano and Yolande Pompey.

***I think you have a fair point that Schoppner might have feasted on home cooking, but it is also fair to point out his only loss was in Rinaldi's home town and that also might have been home cooking. Without more facts, though, this is only guesswork.

****Whatever else, Schoppner had a pretty good chin. He was in with some fair punchers.

 

I can tell you a few interesting things about Harold Johnson:

He defeated Eddie Machen more convincingly than a prime Sonny Liston, 9 month later.

He defeated Marty Marshll 4 months after he beat a green Sonny Liston.

He defeated Doug Jones more convincingly that a young Muhammad Ali 10 months previously. Some thought Jones beat Ali.

He defeated Bob Satterfield 18 months before he beat a young Cleavland Williams.

Clearly this was one LHW of tha Marciano era who held his own against the next two generations.

 

Very interesting post ... I don't know enough about Harold .. thee are very impressive credentials ... did he simply match up poorly v.s. Moore ?

 

I wouldn't say he beat Machen more convincingly. It was close and Machen showed great boxing skill in that fight.

You're correct though that Harold had great success as a heavyweight, although the men listed here were more so light heavyweights.