Why do people think Marciano had such a great chin?

He didn't match up poorly, they were close fights but Moore always had an edge on Harold. In their fifth fight, Moore pulled off a comeback KO after behind on points against a tiring Harold Johnson.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE8xqtIkXsk[/ame]


I prefer watching Machen to Jimmy Young. He was more of a classical boxer, not a crafty spoiler like Young, even if he was forced to "spoil" against Liston at times.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gB8ZABZ_Cs[/ame]

 

Your wasting your time with Hegrant on Harold Johnson. I posted a very well researched and informative article on the man some time ago when hegrant doubted his credentials. 3 months from now, he'll be asking the same questions as if he never heard the name before.

 

Great thread this one and great points made and lots of great facts brought up - but at the end of the day - quite ridiculous - bottom line is Marciano was granite chinned everyone who fought him knew it, and everyone who saw him knew it, and everyone who was involved with him knew it - all of boxing knew it - the only people who don't see it (or who do see it but just want to pretend to the contrary) are those who are just outright haters - any boxing person with 1% of a brain knows Marciano had a great chin but there's just the dumbass few (generally the reverse racism crowd) who just want to run him down every chance they can get - I really can't beleive this thread has got this far - WHAT ARE WE GOING TO HAVE NEXT??? A THREAD TITLED "WHY DO PEOPLE THINK ALI WAS SO FAST???"!!!!!

 

His wins against men at one time or another rated in the Ring Magazine yearly heavyweight ratings:

Arturo Godoy, Jimmy Bivins, Archie Moore, Clarence Henry, Bob Satterfield, Nino Valdes, Jimmy Slade, Ezzard Charles, Wayne Bethea, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones.

Also other men who probably were in the monthly ratings:

Bill Gilliam, Julio Mederos, Sid Peaks

*He lost 4 of 5 to Moore, and was ko'd by Walcott.

**He was also "ko'd" in a rematch by Mederos, but this was one of the most notorious incidents in boxing history. Johnson collapsed without being hit. He had been given an orange to eat before the fight and the orange was apparently drugged. It was quite a stink in its day.

***Moore, Satterfield, and Jones were lightheavies who bounced up to the heavyweight division in an era when most top heavies were less than 200 lbs and almost all were less than 215 lbs. So did Johnson. Moore, Satterfield, and Johnson between then defeated all the big heavies of the 1950 to 1955 period other than Louis.

 

Anybody agree with janitor that the early 1950's was a great era for the heavyweight division.

It is the only time light heavies have dominated the heavyweight division. Rocky aside of cause. More importantly old heavies.

I yet to be convinced Rocky's chin met a big puncher. I know Moore has a great record but he was a middleweight at 25. I just feel he caught slow heavies with punches they did not see.

Nino Valdes was koed a few times but not by Moore.

LaStarza and Cockell were young but did nothing after Rocky. Rocky never fought harold Johnson.

I get your point about styles. However I also believe Moore was perfect for Rocky to beat. More so than Flyod was perfect to beat Moore.

What we never saw was Rocky in with a natural 200 ibs 6'2+ fighter. Lewis was old and well past his sell by date.

You missed my point on not losing their last ten. Cockell, LaStarza, Lewis, Matthews and Rex Lange had been on winning streaks of ten or more nobody else had been except Moore. This was out of Rocky's last 21 oppentents. There was one other guy on a decent run I can not remember.

Charles was 32-33 and clearly passed his best.
Walcott was 38-39 and a cinderella man for the second time.

Lewis was 37 and 5 years passed people knowing he was passed his best.
LaStarza and Cockell were Koed out of contention within 18 months.
Lange lost as many as he won after Rocky, probably to generous here.
Matthews a career light heavy who was old and I think retired after rocky.

Only Moore had a decent record afterwards. Yes a lot of heavies were beaten by Archie that does not mean Rocky would beat them though. Just the same as you think Rocky beats Floyd. Based on Floyd vs Archie, Floyd beats Rocky.

Ali beat the 1956 champ and was beaten by Holmes the 1978 to 1985 champ.

How long did Walcott hold the champs belt for?
Archie Moore remain a contender after rocky that is it.

I repeat a win over tommy or nino would have told us more about rocky than fighting old light heavies. LaStarza and Cockell avoid tommy and Nino and medereos prior to rocky.

Charles mixed it with any one put in front of him. He was decent but not above the other contenders when he fought rocky. Only Archie clearly stands out. He fought mostly light heavies. After Rocky he was a gatekeeper to the title.

Where do you rate all the fighters who beat Charles, Cockell, LaStarza and Walcott between 1950 and 1958?

Stamina and pace beats Archie not power, especially after he was 35.

 

What about Walker and Greb in the 1920's?

Billy Conn in the 30's.
Fitz in the 1890's?

Spinks in the 1980's
and Jones Jr in the 2000. Hell we might as well add Toney to that list.

The 50's was not the only time it happen.

 

Lets look at the top ten in the years that Marciano, Patterson, Johansen, and Ali came to power. When Patterson Johansen and Ali win the title you have light heavyweights and ageing contenders from earlier eras in the rankings allong with a few non entities.



Rocky Marciano, Champion

1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Rex Layne
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Dunlop
5. Clarence Henry
6. Johnny Williams
7. Roland LaStarza
8. Heinz Neuhaus
9. Karel Sys
10. Jimmy Bivins

Strong contenders include Walcott, Layne, Charles, LaStarza nad Henry. The top five is strong apart from Dunlap.





Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
2. Archie Moore
3. Harold Carter
4. Willie Pastrano
5. Eddie Machen
6. Bob Satterfield
7. Ingemar Johansson
8. Bob Baker
9. Zora Folley
10. Wayne Bethea

Strong contenders include Moore, Jackson, Machen and Johansen. The top five is weak outside of Moore (Marciano and Charles victim) and Machen (Johnson victim)





Ingemar Johansson, Champion

1. Zora Folley
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Sonny Liston
4. Henry Cooper
5. Eddie Machen
6. Billy Hunter
7. Roy Harris
8. Mike DeJohn
9. Joe Erskine
10. Alex Miteff

Strong contenders include Folley, Patterson, Liston and Machen. The top five is strong outside of Cooper.





Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. George Chuvalo
6. Zora Folley
7. Karl Mildenberger
8. Roger Rischer
9. Eddie Machen
10. Doug Jones

Strong contenders include Liston, Patterson, Terrell. The divison is weak outside the top three. Williams is a physical wreck. Chuvalo, Machen and Jones have all lost to ageing fighters who were contenders in Marciano's era.

 

How is beating Tommy Jackson and Nino Valdes better than wins over Hall Of Famers/Champion/# 1 contenders Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott?

Please, Enlighten me.

 

Not necessarily better ... they would have answered different questions ... we never saw Rocky against a large, near championship caliber , tall , 200 plus pound, hard hitting fighter in his physical prime with a long reach. It would have answered questions about which we can only speculate on ...

In the case of Jackson we would see Rocky against a young, very strong, fast, athletic, tough fighter that could keep up a frenzied pace and take big time punishment and come back fighting ..unlike a Charles, Moore or Walcott who all had a ton of mileage , old legs and were forced over the course of their bouts to have to fight Rocky's fight ..

Rocky never fought any big, strong, talented, fast hard hitting heavyweights in their physical prime in his career. It's a fact. If he did , more questions about his skills would have been answered instead of speculated over ..

For the record I believe he KO's both of those two fighters anyway ..

 

Janitor--Post #82 is very instructive.

Using the Ring Magazine list from 1998, how many top 30 heavyweights according to the Ring list were rated each year?

1952--Marciano, Walcott, Charles, Bivins, Moore (at LH champ)--#5

1956--Patterson, Moore--#2

1959--Patterson, Liston, Moore (at LH champ)--#3

1964--Ali, Liston, Patterson--#3

A few other years

1924--Dempsey, Wills, Tunney (at LH)--#3

1937--Louis, Schmeling--#2 (Baer active but unrated, could be added)

1940--Louis, Baer, Bivins (at LH)--#3

The early fifties does not seem weak at all compared to any era prior to the 1970's.

 

1. Jackson--"could take big time punishment"--Why? He was bombed out in two by Valdes. Later was stopped by Kalbfell. Other than perhaps the slipping Layne and Charles, none of his opponents punched all that hard until Patterson and Machen, who stopped him. He actually lost 2 of 3 to Jimmy Slade.

2. "Rocky never fought any big, strong, talented, fast, hard-hitting heavyweights"--Who is this supposed to be? Valdes, Baker, Holman, or Williams, all of whom lost to the glass-jawed Satterfield, a knockout victim of Moore, Charles, and Layne.

 

It depends if they are still fighting like greats when you meet them.
Joe Louis at 37 and was not anymore
neither was Charles at 33
Walcott was 38/39 I do not rating him as a great. Ten years younger he failed to make it as a contender either at light heavy or heavyweight. Which is half my argue on the decline in the heavyweight division.
Archie Moore was beaten ten years earlier as a light heavy. Archie highlights the drop in class to. I accept he was still a great even a couple years after Rocky. He was 40 when he fought rocky as well.

Now you are physically at your peak at 25. Some fighters hang around at the wrong weights so it is possible Archie like ezzard was a natural light heavy even though he often fought in 160's when he was 25. Cockell was a light heavy at 25. Only LaStarza and Walcott were 185-190 fighters around 25. Skillswise they may have got better but not physically.

Rocky was 185-190 as a fighter with stamina to burn, he could overwelm guys naturally his size. All his contenders were naturally his size and no more than 2 inches taller.

I wanted to see him fight a guy naturally 200+ over 6'2 with a great jab and a big right hand. A young Joe louis or Ali fits the bill who are cearly better than the other contenders. I never got to see Rocky any genuie 200 heavies. rex lange and old Joe louis do not fit the bill.

An Eddie Machen, Floyd paterson or medereos would have told me more.
Rocky sytle was all wrong for Archie and Ezzard and they were old. Rocky struggled to hit Moore. Moore struggled to hit Floyd, Floyd had better single punch power than Rocky.

Rocky fighting Floyd, would tell me he could take good punches often and be fast enough perhaps to handle a quick young fighter. I never saw him fight the quick young thing with a punch or the big young thing with a punch. I saw him fight guys who once great.

In 1962 december he was rated the 6th best heavyweight to that point. I think that is a fair assessment from the top 40 boxing reporters of the day. he was 6th for a reason. There were to many questions about his oppentents quality while he reign. If the quality had been better he would have been higher than 6th.

 

Joe Louis 6'2 214lb

Louis was # 2 rated

Louis was 6'2

Louis was 214lb

This eliminated Hurricane Jackson, since he was not a puncher by any means. It doesn't eliminate Valdes, but do you really think Nino Valdes was better than even a 37 year old Joe Louis?

Joe Louis fought Nino Valdes and knocked him out in 1 round in a live exhibition.

Jackson fast? Is that a joke?

Jackson athletic? that must be the joke of the day. Probably the most uncoordinated fighter who ever lived.

This is what Rex Layne was

Jackson never reached 200lb. He typically weighed around 190lb. Rex Layne was 6'1 and around 195lb, same size as Jackson.

Jackson had a long reach, but he was an inside fighter...which completely negates this advantage.

Jackson a hard hitter? Thats laughable. He was one of the weakest punchers of the era. He was no puncher by any means. Rex Layne, on the otherhand, was a big puncher. Before you bring up the layne-jackson fight, Layne was shot to pieces at the time. Jackson would have gotten murdered by a 1950-1951 Rex Layne. Layne would have walked right through jackson taking his best punches, nailing jackson with jab after jab until he lands the big right hand. Jackson would get outworked, beaten down, and would probably have gotten broken mentally. Jackson as you know, was one bizarre individual.

No not really. Rocky took on rex layne, who was a harder punching, faster version of Hurricane Jackson. Plus Layne wasn't a psychopath.

 

Who was around that fit this description? Please don't say Nino Valdes or Hurricane Jackson.