why do so many old timers look so bad on tape???

It's Zapata against hozumi.

 

thanks Mante always wanted to know

 

You taking the **** or what?

 

Just got the years confused, point remains the same.

Probably got his era mixed up with Langford, Joe Walcott, Dempsey or someone like that.

 

Sometime old films are blurred or run too fast or too slow. Other times they are shot at a distance, and lack close up views and different angles.

I think for the most part any viewable film can give you a good idea of the fighters style and ability, but the older the film, the harder it is to judge.

If you want to see old timers looking good on film, check out Gans, or Burns 1st round KO ( forget over whom right now ). Each film was shot pre 1908.

 

Fair do's. To try and answer your question, I think that both Saldivar's record and the number of fights in which he achieved it reflect his skill set in that he clearly defeated a slew of great to near-great fighters with styles all across the board without a single loss in his prime: the pure boxer (Winstone), the speed merchant (Legra), the slickster (Laguna), the technician (Famechon), the knockout artist (Ramos) etc etc. It's safe to say that men of this calibre and generally better than the men Barrera beat (although not necessarily faced) at featherweight. A wide array of varying attributes would be needed to do what Saldivar did so frequently in so short a space of time.

I think you mentioned earlier that Saldivar looked slow in comparison to Barrera or something or other along those lines. The footage available of him demonstrates that he was anything but slow (to me at least), and this may seem like heresy to you and others, but he put punches together just as quickly (if not better) than Barrera from behind an excellent jab whilst making his lack of stature work for him when it came to punches coming back the other way. He could be a slow starter at times, but stopped plenty of good men inside or around the 12 round distance including Seki, Winstone and Ramos, which makes me think that he'd be at a minimal disadvantage over 12 as opposed to 15. Like Sweet Pea said, he brings something similar to what Pacquaio brought to the table, but also had that brutal body attack as well as being harder to hit cleanly and drive onto the back foot.

Barrera developed into a very good technician in the second half of his career, but at the absolute highest level, he was hittable and hurtable. Legitimate excuses can be made to partly sanctify the Jones and Pacquaio losses, but they can't be explained away (something I tried to do for years). I still maintain that on a given day, he would have had a chance at downing Pacquiao, but it doesn't alter the fact that a green Pac battered him (although Barrera actually did well in the rematch at times despite being past his best). I just don't see any area in which he was superior to Saldivar, nor any stylistic foils that he might bring to the table that Saldivar never dealt with before. None of the men he beat had the entire package that Saldivar did. Which isn't to say that the fight would easy - no feather in history is having anything like an easy time with the best Barrera.

But if time machines existed, Barrera might well prove me wrong as he did throughout his career. I'd be glad to see it. But logic (at least my logic for what it's worth) points to Saldivar being a little too dynamic and grinding him down over 12 or 15 in a very competitive fight.

 

Nice post. :good

 

:bart Post a link here from youtube showing me what you mean. I'll post you a video of Barrera putting an amazingly fast 5 punch combination together in retaliation.

Your post was great, but when I hear stuff like this, but I don't see any footage to back it up, what am I supposed to say? I'm almost certain you won't be able to produce any footage of him throwing punches in combination with as great a fluidity as when Marco did it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-tv-zz-dOU[/ame]

Lovely work. Beautiful really. But his punches are often wide, and his combination's aren't thrown with the fluidity of Marco. I'll show you what I mean.

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

OK.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtdshefRdig&feature=related[/ame]


Watch from about 5.00 on, and take into account that Winstone was at his peak here and a far better featherweight than Tapia ever was. Barrera unleashed salvo's like the above one on open, hittable fighters like Tapia (whose was never a featherweight and well past his best anyway). Winstone was far more elusive and well schooled than Tapia with a better jab, therefore much more difficult to hit cleanly with consecutive shots, which Saldivar manages here with obvious effect.

Barrera's combo's had a different aesthetic to Saldivar's in that they were perhaps more classically delivered with a slight edge in fluidity which was more noticable against hittable types like Tapia and Morales. But he doesn't put them together any faster, nor with any greater power to any greater effect than what Saldivar does here against a much better and trickier opponent in Winstone. Also bear in mind that Saldivar had shorter arms than Barrera and put more of his bodyweight into single shots. The shots might look wide on the odd occasion, but he throws them at such a time where it doesn't really matter. Even so, they still travel over a short distance.

What would get Barrera in trouble IMO would be that he would have most likely tried, as he often did, to throw those kind shots under pressure, particularly late on when he realised that he wasn't going to be able to keep Saldivar on the end of his jab. Exchanges would be inevitable, and Saldivar's shorter blows would be the more telling ones. He was forced to exchange against Pacquaio for similar reasons and was relatively easy to hit with in said exchanges, especially when the overhand left stunned him first, not having the overall speed to go blow for blow with Pacquiao nor the savvy to tie him up or retreat when stunned or hurt. Caught in no man's land if you like.

Even if Barrera was a more fluid combo puncher to you, he still didn't quite have Saldivar's inside game, two fisted power, proven 15 round stamina, durability, proven effectiveness against varied world-class opposition or ability to block and slip blows. He had em, just not quite as Saldivar did.

A lot of Saldivar's best stuff isn't on youtube either.

 

I'm really happy you presented some evidence, Tin. Often times when I get into these sort of discussions, they can't seem to produce anything. As I said before, if I don't see any evidence to back up someone's argument, what exactly am I supposed to say? However, in this case, I think you're fighting Saldivars corner brilliantly.

However, nothing in that video proved me wrong. The disparity in power and effectiveness was never in dispute. My soul argument was that Saldivar, too me, was not as good as Barrera when it came to putting punches together in combination. Although what transpired against Winstone was brutal and brilliant, he didn't show the flawless technical often displayed by Marco, who didn't just do it against Tapia, he did it every time out. I could tire you with footage. He put punches together beautifully against Marquez, Hamed, Morales, Mckinney, all top quality opponents.

To get more technical about it, the difference I see is that Saldivar seems to be throwing more predictable combination's and with lesser form. Marco, when he throws, his stance is always steady and his punches are delivered with frightening accuracy. Look at the variation in the the combination's I shown you. Left hook upstairs, left hook downstairs, slight step back, jab, double straight right hand, and finishing up with a left uppercut. You criticise the level of opposition, but the speed in which he does it, and how every shot lands, is absolutely world class. It doesn't get any better.

I think you're reaching with commenting on the opposition. I have a silly amount of Barrera fights on DVD, and I can assure you, he was landing beautiful combination's to body and head throughout his career. Morales is a 1st ballot hall of famer fighter, and Hamed was undefeated at Featherweight when Barrera dismantled him. He did defeat world class featherweights, and his main offensive weapon was always his counter-punching in combination. Some of the stuff he did in the first Morales first was astoundingly good. I'm not talking about punching power, I'm talking about delivery, speed, accuracy and variation, and Marco was a top tier guy in all of those regards.

The shots look wide because their wide, Tin. I don't want to lose context here. I'm amazingly impressed by what you're showing me. I love Saldivar's style, he's a patient counterpuncher, and he is a very good combination puncher. However, how we can be disputing which peice of footage is more impressive is beyond me. Saldivar was a heavy hitter at 126lbs, Barrera was a natural 122lbs who could have easily weight drained down at Super Flyweight and picked up some titles. When we talk delivery, speed, and variation...are you disputing Saldivar was better?

I'll ask again, show me video to prove it or give me a detailed analysis of why the shots Saldivar just threw were better? In reality, he was landing 1-2 punch combination's at best, and once he had Winstone on the hook, he was just looking for the finish. I appreciate that not a lot of footage is easily accessible of Saldivar, but I just want to clarify. Are you disputing that Saldivar was a better combination puncher than Marco? We know who hit harder.

It's a good point. I don't think Marco would be winning an inside battle with the more compact Saldivar, who surely has enough power to buzz and certainly stop Marco at 126lbs. I think the Pacquiao comparison is silly, however. If you were to throw in two fighters to exagerate the contrast that cane sometimes be seen in two different styles, comparing Pacquiao and Saldivar would be appropriate. They are completely different, and why must there be this emphasis on one of Marco's bad nights, when he was a professional for over 20 years, and a top level fighter for over 13?

I think Marco had the capacity with his superior hand-speed, longer arms, and wonderful jab to keep this on the outside for long periods. If Saldivar is then forced to engage, he'd be taken out of his comfort zone and thus be susceptible to strong counter-shots himself. I did say that I felt Barrera would win in a 12 fight, and his stamina over that duration was never ever in question during his prime days.

Even with all of your points and the video you showed me, I still think Marco would be too fast for Saldivar, or at least the one I saw fight Winstone in their third fight. I'm not here to throw around Barrera propaganda, I will come back with a revised view once I get my Saldivar footage come in the mail...should be on it's way now. Marco's style was often compared to Chavez when he was coming through, but once he developed, he looked more like Saldivar...and that's a huge compliment.

I have no complaints for anyone who picks Saldivar and who says he had a better inside game, beat better Featherweights, and hit harder. I do, however, feel very strongly about Marco's combination punching ability. You can criticise the level of opposition all you want, but Marco has a wonderful resume by contemporary standards and his punching in clusters was his bread and butter. He did it consistently, and although he wasn't a huge hitter at 126lbs, his variation, accuracy, and speed he delivered the shots in clusters...is there for all to see. He was beautiful to watch.

Bonus question: How does Chavez's combination punching ability stack up to Saldivars in your judgment? And what criteria do you consider when looking at that particular facet of a fighter's offense?

 

Fair enough squire. I'm too tired to get into too deep a debate, so just a couple of things. Barrera is not too fast for him, not on this earth. Ismael Laguna's handspeed was clearly superior to Barrera's at any stage of their respective careers, and Saldivar was more than able to handle it. I wouldn't even say he was faster than Ramos or Winstone to be honest (there's some Ramos on youtube I think). And even if Barrera was faster than Winstone, he didn't have a better jab than him. Look at the technique, timing and snap behind it that still couldn't deter Saldivar. Barrera's jab was good at keeping off lower level types for long periods, or spearing the likes of Hamed (who by that point had the defensive aptitude of Junior Witter) and Morales (great fighter but a shite defense for a top level operator, there's no point denying it). He was hittable with the jab himself, and Saldivar's jab was excellent in it's own right. He could throw it to premium effect on the front or back foot, as a range finder or point scorer, which is quite remarkable for someone who was 5'3. He could throw it practically running forward at times.

You said I was reaching concerning level of opposition, but you brought up contrasting pieces of footage of one man fighting a near-great career featherweight in his prime and one man fighting a shopworn smaller man/mediocre featherweight. It's a **** comparison, was my point. Even if Barrera shows better punching form in such a comparison, it matters less than Saldivar bludgeoning a better opponent in less aesthetically pleasing manner. His punching form would be nigh on as good if it was Tapia standing across from him. And I think that you're reaching calling Saldivar's punches wide. They're no more wide than Barrera pulling the hook to the body or telegraphing the right, which I've seen him do on more than one occasion, and like I said, the relative shortness of Saldivar's arms take away from the 'wideness' of the swings, which doesn't happen all that much anyway. Not enough for him to lose to the great opposition he defeated. If it were that significant, Winstone, Ramos, Laguna, Famechon, Legra, Seki, Luis, Robertson or Rojas would have done something about it at some point where it would have beed enough to win.

I'm emphasising the Pacquaio fight because Barrera was in his prime even if he did have an off night. The Pacquiao of that fight is the nearest thing to Saldivar we have, except that Saldivar was just flat out better than Pacquiao at featherweight. That Morales and Marquez were subsequently able to give Pacquiao so much trouble past their own primes (when Barrera is generally regarded as the best of the trio) has to say something.

I want to go on but can't be arsed, it takes me ****ing ages to articulate myself with stuff like this, and I don't want to bore you or keep repeating myself.

But I'm right :!::tong

 

Even though it's arguable, I'm willing to concede that Barrera was a bit quicker than Saldivar, but I don't see much at stake in conceding the point.

Morales was no faster than Saldivar, and didn't have his strength or inside fighting ability either, but he was holding his own against Barrera.

There's more to a fight than speed folks.

 

...I see you're not prepared to give Barrera any credit whatsoever in any facet of the game when comparing him with Saldivar, and for that reason, we can call it a day. :good I look forward to watching more Saldivar.

 

But people deny it anyway. It's like, for some reason, we have to ignore video footage. Barrera was visibly faster on film than Saldivar, and yet we still have people disputing it. Why? If he just produced a video of Saldivar throwing a 3-4 punch combination to body and head in a matter of 2 seconds as Marco would often do then they'd be no complaints. I'd fully concede. Yes, Saldivar was every bit as fast and his technique was every bit as flawless as Barrera's. I didn't see that though.

Questioning what it actually all means in the grand scale of things is a different matter. As I said before, I can accept that Vicente Saldivar was a great combination puncher in his own right, and I've been very willing to give him credit for many of the things I saw him do well. However, Tin Rubs was just blasting Marco in his last response. Not cool. :bart

 

Barrera was a tad quicker for mine. Was a tad quicker than Julio Cesar Chavez too.

But both Saldivar and Chavez weren't in the quick combination game.
They didn't aim to throw quickly - they aimed to hurt quickly. They were there to throw shots to the body and break guys down. Barrera was more boxer-oriented and lived more behind his handspeed and combination throwing ability. I'm willing to give him the edge there.