Why do so many put Tyson in their all time top 10 HW greats?

eh, or it could be the fact that douglas hit him with a combination that stunned him badly. Mike was already hurt at that point and he was trying to end it with whatever stamina and coherence he had left, but Douglas came back strong, and that's that.

Tyson was on the slide. If you want proof, just watch the Bruno fight in 89', which came right after Spinks. Tyson already showed signs that he was losing his discipline and skills in the ring.

I'll admit, the Williams fight was one of his better performances, but when you consider everything that's been documented and known about Tyson in the years leading up to the Douglas fight, there's just no doubt that he wasn't the same guy anymore. His boxing skills were eroding. He fired his old management team including Kevin Rooney, and hired Don King and a bunch of inexperienced trainers and yes-men who didn't manage or train him properly. In a nutshell, Tyson let the money get to him, and he got lazy.

Look if you want a comparison, just watch tyson anytime post '88, then watch him prior to that. There's a huge difference. He switched from being an elusive, pin-point technical fighter/slugger, to essentially a straight-forward headhunter.

I'm not trying to make an excuse for him, but the facts are what they are. Should he of lost that fight? No. Was he at or anywhere near his best for that fight? No.

I mean, do you honestly think that the fight would have turned out the way it did had the same Tyson who beat Holmes, Berbick, and Spinks stepped into the ring that night?

As for Ruddock and Stewart... the Tyson of 88' would of knocked out Ruddock inside 3 rounds. Stewart was made for Tyson.

 

I don't think he looked dead tired or very hurt. It was not a quit job by any means, I just think other champions would have given it more of a go. The fights against Holyfield and Lewis strenghten this view.

How is one fight where he doesn't look all conquering proof of a slide when he looked good in the fights before Bruno, the fight before Douglas and the fights after Douglas before prison?

An extremely dominating champion being somewhat overconfident and getting a bit lazy is not the same as being on the slide. As for his personal problems, they are both used as a reason to his dominating perfomance against Spinks and his loss to Douglas.

I don't think he lost these skills, he just felt dominant enough to not having to use them diligently. Against Douglas you can see that he tries to use better head movement when it's clear that Douglas won't fold, but Douglas just times him too well.

But no fighter always put on their best perfomance. The difference between Tyson and other greats is that they still find a way to win or at least make it close.

Sure, Tyson wasn't at his very sharpest, which is quite natural given the low threat Douglas was perceived as and the relatively low profile of the fight. But he hadn't lost that excellent timing and technique that he displayed just six months earlier against Williams, and he wasn't in bad physical shape because then he would never have lasted with Douglas as he did.

Tyson didn't look worse against Ruddock than he did against Tucker, Smith or Tillis. And Stewart was just as made for Tyson as most of the guys he fought.

 

I agree with Philly. Tyson was upset too much by lesser talents, and lacks a career defining win vs a top opponent. Tyson lost his legacy fights to Lewis and Holyfield, and not only was he knocked out, he was not even competitive. If Tyson was competitive in any of his legacy fights, I'd rate him a little higher. Tyson also never fought Bowe, and the fight could have been made.

Tyson was a fantastic physical talent with power, speed and skills, but he was also a bully / front-runner type who never mounted a comeback in a fight, and tended to lose steam and focus as the rounds progressed.

Because Tyson was a big puncher and fast finisher, he certainly could beat anyone in the top ten. The problem for me is he did not come close to doing it.

Tyson's most impressive wins in terms of beating a good opponents were Thomas, Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno and Spinks. These were good fighters.

On the other hand Tyson did was nearly undone vs Burno in he first fight, struggled vs Botha at age 32. Douglas beat Tyson up, and later in his career, he lost to the likes of Danny Williams, and then quit vs tier 2 guy in Kevin McBride.

I have Tyson just outside of my top ten.

 

Sure. I'ts not clear cut in any way, but seeing how he stopped really trying to win against Holyfield and Lewis, it's hard to not see traces of it against Douglas as well.

Anyhow, fact remains that he only turned one fight around (Botha) and that was with one punch, something that always will be a possibility for someone with Tyson's punching power.

 

Because in his absolute prime, Tyson was more than a match for any Heavyweight in History. Not saying he would beat them all, but he would give a good account of himself to say the least. His most devistating defeats were to Don King & Robin unforGIVINS!

 

Tyson had been beat up for almost 9 rounds prior to that. He left eye was basically closed. In the 9th round, Tyson tried to finish Douglas, but his head obviously wasn't very clear, and Douglas came back with a sharp combination that stunned him badly.

He looked great in the williams fight, he looked terrible in the bruno fight, and he looked somewhat mediocore in the ruddock, stewart and tillman fights -- winging punches, standing straight up, flatfooted, not using the jab. If Kevin Rooney was there, and was asked to rate tyson's performances, he would give him a D.

Nice exaggeration. He was a little more then 'somehwat' over confident'. And lazy? He wasn't training at all. He got knocked down by Greg Page in sparring, and was refusing to work out. He was being handled by bunch of nobodies who had no idea how to train or prepare him properly.

Tyson looked absolutely terrible in the douglas fight. He had no timing, he was slow, and he was flat-footed. He looked nothing like his old self. Like I said, his style changed.

That's exactly why he lost to douglas. He did lose his excellent timing and technique. And he was out-of-shape.

See this where you show, no offense, a little bit of ignornance. Which is nothing to be ashmed of, because I happen to be a huge tyson nutthuger for years.

But seriously, Tyson did not look like his old self during the ruddock, stewart, tillman, and most certainly the Douglas and Bruno fights.

Boxing experts and commentators were even mentioning during that time that mike didn't seem like the same fighter anymore. He started to lose his head movement and elusiveness. He was standing straight-up, flat flooted and throwing bombs, instead of coming in behind jabs and fast combination punches. For the first time, Mike was easy to hit, which is something you'd never say about him at his peak.

Watch Tyson v Pinklon Thomas round 1, and compare that to anything post 1988' and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I've already adressed this above.

I think you're exagerrating. They were stable perfomances, but not exceptional. What people forget is that there were many rounds against Tillis, Smith, Tucker and even Thomas where he didn't look that good.

Yeah, yeah. He was doing coke up until three hours before the fight etc etc, I heard it all before. The important thing is that he wasn't overweight against Douglas and he didn't gas out. Instead he took a beating for 9 rounds and was still game. This is not what you'd expect from a fighter in terrible shape.

You always look terrible when a fighter's got your number. Louis looked bad against Conn and Walcott, Ali looked bad against Norton and Jones. Liston and Foreman looked bad against Ali. This wasn't because they did coke or went to brothels, it was because of the fighter in front of them

You attack it from the wrong end. You only look at what Tyson didn't do, look instead what Douglas did do. He took the initiative, was loose but sharp, let his hands go, roughed Tyson up in the clinches - all things no one had dared or been able to do Tyson before. That tells us more of the result than a lot of unsubstantiated rumours of Tyson's poor preparations.

Even though Tyson himself named the Stewart fight as one of his best fights, I'll agree they weren't vintage perfomances. But I think that this was more due to the fact that he gotten used to winning the easy route, not that he lost something fundamental. And even if they weren't on par with his perfomances against Holmes, Berbick and Spinks they were certainly on par with his perfomances against Tucker, Tillis etc.

(He looked damn good in the first round against Rudock as well) Edit: Wrong of me. Watched the two first rounds again, and Tyson didn't look very good. I remembered wrong.

And people forget that Thomas had some really good rounds against Tyson. Tyson had a strong start and finished excellently, but in the rounds between Thomas showed that he was possible to get to.

Of course, Douglas wasn't Tyson's best night. But Louis didn't have his best nights against Farr, Godoy and Conn, and Ali didn't have his best nights against Jones, Cooper, Chuvalo or Norton. But they still won. There's the difference. Not that Tyson suddenly was past it at 24, 18 months past possibly his best perfomance.

 

Mike Tyson was an era maker. Because he was one of a kind.

Tyson proved in the pro ring for the first time that a heavyweight can possess blinding speed and massive power, a solid technical foundation and frightening killer instinct.

Still in the wake of Ali's final retirement from the game, Tyson put boxing back into the mainstream, because, like Michael Jordan flying across the court, Reggie Jackson hitting three homers on three pitches in the World Series, or Dempsey, Louis and Ali in the ring before him, he displayed such unbelievable talent that even a casual observer became fascinated by this unique specimen.

The time line doesn't lie: he came up blasting through the ranks to become the youngest heavy champ ever by absolutely crushing a capable, seasoned belt holder in unprecedented fashion, knocking him down thrice with one punch. He did the impossible: he unified the title...and how! This 20-year-old made an otherwise fascinating process a pedestrian exercise in foregone conclusions, dismantling the man willing to do battle with him and showing maturity and technical skill way beyond his years to routinely outpoint those just wanting to survive. And this against a crop of pretty formidable title holders. Yes, the stats speak for themselves, but, with Tyson in particular, it is the how that speaks loudest.

Tyson is called a bully, but, from my vantage point, the young challenger and king Mike Tyson was, in true D'Amato fashion, quite the mild-spoken one at his peak. In fact, Berbick blustered way more prior to their title bout, as did others such as Holmes and even Angelo Dundee prior to Thomas. And he was invariably the much shorter man. Yet this high-voiced boy with a lisp made guys who had seen it all, been to hell and back, suddenly begin quaking with fear upon facing him. "Oh...my...God..." "Where do I lie down?" "Forget sport! I have a life to live." "I never saw it coming and BOOM!" "He's a furious force of nature, a hurricane in the ring."

What he did to Holmes can never be forgotten. How he buried a picture-perfect right hook into the Holmes temple for the beginning of the end, from SO FAR OUTSIDE, displaying extraordinary speed, power and timing of foot, torso and fist is a highlight worthy of being included among those of any other heavy great. And he did it by slashing past one of the best left hands ever.

A dyed-in-the-wool winner such as Spinks, who was not afraid of Holmes or Cooney, actually seeming to revel in the greatest of dangers, unprecedentedly cowered and disappeared in the aura of Tyson's prowess, yet was game to survive once the bell rang. But a totally unexpected, perfectly accurate bomb of a right to the body put him on all fours within about a minute and, seconds later, another totally unexpected, perfectly accurate bomb of a right to the temple sealed his fate. The stuff of greatness. Superior to the stuff displayed by the slower, cruder, yet top-rated sluggers Liston and Foreman, who were just about always the bigger men in their highlights. Tyson could reign as long as he wanted.

To me, his proficiency declined parallel to the decline of his ideals. Like a blazing meteor, he appeared suddenly, spectacularly, on fire, and immediately began to extinguish upon reaching the zenith. The whys are the topic for another thread, but, to me and many others, Mike Tyson was, as befits the nature of his sport and style, for a short time the most amazing of fighting machines.

 

Couldn't have put it better. :thumbsup

 

Because he cleaned out a division,unified the titles and made heavyweight boxing watchable again.People forget just how good he was,they only look at what happened after his release from jail.Which really was not that bad to start with,he won 2 titles before he ran into Holyfield.He is a 2 time multiple champ who deserves his position in any top 10 list.He fought well past his prime and he and Lewis are not of the same era,Lewis had not even won gold when Tyson was world champ.The Lewis fight means nothing at all.

 

Because that is where he deserves to be, as simple as that even though Im no fan of him

 

That may have been true about the Holyfield and Lewis wins but I don't for a second believe that he caved against Douglas, Not even for an iota of a minute.

Against Douglas he still fought as though he knew he was the better fighter and that he will eventually catch up and knock him out.

The late knockdown particularly in the 8th round, a round in which Douglas was actually doing pretty well in suggests that depite being beaten from pillar to post he still had the fighting spirit.

Physically as a result of the accumulated punishment that he had been taking up until that point he was unable to perform what was needed to overcome Douglas that late in the fight particularly because Douglas was the fresher fighter. But look in the 9th round- when he was against the ropes he attempts to make lightning strike twice by throwing the same uppercut that felled Buster in round 8 and it didnt work. He was trying to win but far too incoherent to pull it off.