Why does everyone say Liston couldn't cut off the ring?

No lateral movement here but an interesting interview.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6OJkxv1pyM

 

Machen spent a lot of time on the ropes, Mcvey and covered up and countered. He was not running corner to corner!

How old was Liston in the Martin fight? Try age 39! Why even use this as an example? You are reaching for straws here. Anyone who has seen Liston pre Ali knows he moved well and could cut off the ring. Few if any wanted to trade with Liston. The truth is they tried to move out of the way for the most part!

Liston took many top ranked guys out early and trust me they could not escape. Like I said Liston had great reach and caught up to his opponents quickly. The proof is in the results.

Patterson ko 1 2x
Westphal ko 1
Folley KO 3
Harris KO 1
Valdes KO 3
Williams KO 2 and 3 ( Williams wanted to trade )

In workouts, Liston shows good footwork and jumping ability. He did not have cement feet. Far from it.

 

I've asked you to provide one filmed example of Liston cutting off the ring.You haven't and you won't .He didn't. Film shows us this and if we were in any doubt Angelo Dundee and Archie Moore confirm it. Liston skipped to the leaden beat of Night Train, jumping ability,and cement feet have f*ck all to do with cutting off the ring. I had slow feet when I boxed but was taught to use lateral movement to keep my opponent in front of me ,under pressure and in range.You don't know what you are talking about ,[nothing new there].

 

I believe Liston was closer to 45 when he fought Leotis Martin. Wepner said when he first saw Liston, the first thing the thought was how very old he looked up close.

 

Liston followed guys . . . . and generally caught up with them.

 

Because he couldn't.. One of the very few fighters he met who actually knew how to USE the ring beat him severely.

 

Machen spent a lot of time on the ropes, Mcvey and covered up and countered. He was not running corner to corner!

How old was Liston in the Martin fight? Try age 39! Why even use this as an example? You are reaching for straws here. Anyone who has seen Liston pre Ali knows he moved well and could cut off the ring. Few if any wanted to trade with Liston. The truth is they tried to move out of the way for the most part!

Liston took many top ranked guys out early and trust me they could not escape. Like I said Liston had great reach and caught up to his opponents quickly. The proof is in the results.

Patterson ko 1 2x
Westphal ko 1
Folley KO 3
Harris KO 1
Valdes KO 3
Williams KO 2 and 3 ( Williams wanted to trade )

In workouts, Liston shows good footwork and jumping ability. He did not have cement feet. Far from it.

As I told you, with his skills and very long arms, Liston had his own way of catching up to people. He'd rather have his feet set to punch than chase. Like I said he didn't need to chase many thanks to his extremely long arms, which had their own way of cutting off his opponents escape path.

Few wanted to stand and trade with Liston yet they had no choice. As for not knowing what I'm talking about, I think there were other parts of your body that are as slow as your feet.

 

He didn't spend a lot of time on the ropes he claimed ring centre whenever he could . Neither is it about running from corner to corner ,its about him moving from side to side and Liston being unable to stay in front of him he had to continually re-set himself.

Watch the fight!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd4OBvaJp78

Here he is ,following Bill McMurray around like a sheep dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqD5Zeqbpi0



You are right and Angelo Dundee and Archie Moore are wrong is that it?

Tell us again how many boxing matches you have had?

No filmed examples coming from you then? What a surprise!

Why don't you stick to telling us how Wlad is a clean fighter and does not foul opponents?atsch

 

Go to YouTube and watch Liston vs. Bill McMurray. McMurray is a "runner" and you will see Liston still does not know how to cut the ring down. He follows him behind a long jab.

 

Exactly!:good

 

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I just don't understand how a rational case could be made for Liston ever being an effective ring cutter with the entirety of Bert Whitehurst II in October 1958 and Leotis Martin in 1969 have been on youtube for years, and showed the same pattern of trailing a moving target over a decade apart.

Beyond that, there were opponents who improved their showings against him in rematches.

Johnny Summerlin was dominated over the eight round limit in Sonny's television debut, but six weeks later, Liston had to settle for an eight round SD. There was no third bout between them over eight rounds or ten rounds, but Liston's next bout was his loss to Marshall while Summerlin went on a tear in 1955 after losing his first ten rounder towards the end of 1954.

Looking at Johnny's stoppages over Charlie Powell in six, Zora Folley in six (his first defeat), Ernie Cab in four (who later gave Sonny a surprising amount of trouble over eight rounds the month after Whitehurst II) and sending Whitehurst to the hospital, comparing their records (specifically in 1955), and factoring in how durable this first rematch opponent of Liston's was over the course of his career, I'm going to come right out and say it. The decision winner of Summerlin-Liston III over ten rounds in 1955 would have been Johnny Summerlin.

Marshall II was a sixth round stoppage for Sonny, but Marty went the ten round distance in their rubber match.

On the other end of Liston's career, he decked then retired Joiner after seven rounds in May 1968, then had five more bouts while Billy remained inactive prior to their rematch in March 1969, then Joiner took Sonny to the final bell. :huh

That should be very disturbing to strong advocates of Liston. Sonny did NOT have a pattern of improving in rematches against opponents who extended him or show any signs of evolving from the 1950's on like Foreman did.

Previously, a number of times I've said that Floyd Patterson wins Patterson-Liston III in successful defense of the WBA Title in 1969 if referee and sole judge Harold Valan awards his decision to Floyd over Jimmy Ellis in Stockholm in 1968. With a combination of uncharacteristic confidence from his first championship distance experience, and the savvy with lateral movement he displayed against Chuvalo, Patterson proves Ali right, and does defeat the lung diseased and aging Sonny in 1969.

Now I'm going to make another assertion. With a healthy right hand like the one he used to knock down Nino Valdes for the count with a body shot, Eddie Machen wins Machen-Liston II in 1961.

While I don't think Joe Frazier's gotten enough credit for his post Manila rematch against Foreman despite being utterly shot, neither do I believe George has gotten enough credit for changing his tactics from the wild slugging in Frazier I and clumsy Lyle brawl he was coming off of to the controlled and measured performance in Frazier II. Both George and Joe adapted in that one, Foreman despite squaring off against an opponent he'd previously blown out.

George only had two career rematches, against Peralta and Frazier, but he clearly evolved and improved the second time around against both. (Yes, he blew Smoke out in two the first time, but also understood he'd caught Joe completely unprepared and unawares, which wasn't going to happen with Frazier a second time.)

Seven opponents went against Liston in rematches, a remarkable figure for somebody with such a fearsome reputation. Again, I think Summerlin and Patterson beat him in a third try, as does Machen in a second attempt.

Eddie, being mentally ill, wasn't afraid of Sonny, even with one good arm. He was talking trash to Liston, deliberately ticking Sonny off by hitting on a break, and roughing Liston up in a clinch, spinning Sonny around as if waltzing with him. It also appeared to me as though Machen landed the hardest punch of their bout, a buckling left hook with 30 seconds left to go in round eight which had Liston struggling a bit, with his back against the ropes and then to his own corner as the bell rang. With the same healthy right arm he used for knocking out Valdes, he would have had Sonny in very, very serious trouble over those last 30 seconds.

Interestingly, Foreman was a lot more quiet and stoic in competition than Liston was during Machen. (Ditto Louis.) Eddie very visibly upset Sonny's composure, and Liston seemed noticeably confused and lost a bit when getting roughed up. Machen also drove him savagely into a neutral corner during the final round with a vicious left armed barrage, then bulled Sonny back in there. Nobody did that to Foreman. Eddie wasn't trying to survive, he was doing the best he could with one good arm to punch with, unloading left hook bombs which made Liston flinch and duck for cover. Machen stunned Sonny in that eighth round. (No way Liston and his corner didn't figure out very quickly something was wrong with that right, that they were facing a one armed opponent.)

Again, give Eddie two good arms instead of just a healthy left, that bout may have produced a very different outcome, as I also believe a rematch would. Peralta and Chuvalo standing their ground to make Foreman move is one thing, driving and mauling Liston backwards forcibly into the corners and against the ropes in spurts with one healthy arm is another. (On footage, I only see the Bear take more backwards steps against George Johnson.) Even when unable to punch effectively with his right, he could still use it with his high guard to pick off Sonny's punches well. Liston lost three points to low blows. Why? Because Machen's guard was successful enough at blocking and deflecting Liston's punches to force Sonny's trying to get underneath that guard.

Foreman-Machen is a very different match than Liston-Machen. For one, even with two good arms, Eddie's not driving George against the ropes or corners with punches or shoving. Nor is he standing his ground, as he was a mover, whether backwards, laterally, or forwards (as was the case when an apparently timid and cautious Ingo drew him into the Swede's trap). Machen wouldn't be ducking under and out into mid ring with Foreman. George's huge body was the wall closing in to squash his target, quickly leaving nowhere to run or hide, but fight or lose. Ali had the height and reach to match Foreman's. Eddie would have to use his superior speed to beat the wide open George to the punch, defend and deflect with his guard and elude with his head movement over the long haul while keeping it in mid ring as much as possible. He can't play punching bag like Ali in Kinshasa. (Who the hell else could so cavalierly give away shots like that?) One thing's for sure. Neither Foreman or Machen would ask for or give any quarter.