Why does size matter?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mr.DagoWop, Aug 25, 2016.


  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

    36,025
    1,932
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 14, 2005
    "If you are Wills are you going to refuse to sign? Even if its meaningless? Why? So Dempsey can then say you refused to fight him?

    Wills chased Dempsey across the country for seven years, not the other way around despite what you Dempsey worshippers might wish to believe.

    Why did Wills sign? Because it was an easy $50,000 for nothing. Id sign my name to a contract anyone for $50,000.

    Thats the point. It was payoff money. Thats what you dont get. The first time Wills and Dempsey signed it wasnt even a contract. That fact escapes you as well.

    You realize that the "contract" you have seen photos of was signed in September of 1925 and stipulated that the bout wasnt to be held until a YEAR LATER. Right?

    Have you ever seen a contract written like that, particularly in an era when promotions were abbreviated far more than today?

    One month after signing the contract Dempsey's business manager quit Dempsey's services stating that he would not be a part of Dempsey's concerted efforts to break the contract. Dempsey quickly tried to deny the statement saying he intended to fight Wills.

    November 1 Wills was paid the first payment of $25,000 promised by Fitzsimmons. Dempsey, Fitzsimmons friend, was not. Why?

    Early the next year Wills was paid the other $25,000 and a month later Dempsey admitted that the $50,000 was money he paid. Despite having never recieved a dime from Fitzsimmons who spend several weeks with Dempsey in Los Angeles in early 1926. Sound like two guys who couldnt come to an arrangement?

    While all of this was going on Rickard was actively planning a Dempsey-Tunney fight. Why, if there was ever a reasonable expectation of Dempsey fighting Wills? Doesnt that seem a bit optimistic when considering that Dempsey hadnt fought in 3 years and had stutter stepped past several proposed fights during that time? Hmmm.

    At the same time as all of this was going on Dempsey was offered $500,000 by a group in Los Angeles to fight Wills there. Dempsey refused.

    So you tell me: Dempsey couldnt find anyone to come up with the money to fight Wills? Dempsey signed a contract with his buddy Floyd Fitzsimmons to face Wills but got mad when Fitzsimmons couldnt pay him up front yet still pays Wills $50,000 of his own money AFTER Fitzsimmons had missed his payments to Dempsey and all the while he is negotiating for a fight with Tunney which actually did happen? Is that simple enough for you?

    Do I need to spell it out that Dempsey paid Wills step aside money through his good friend Floyd Fitzsimmons so that he could continue being called champion and reaping all of the earnings that brought in outside of the ring and inside had he beaten Tunney as was expected.

    You have a fanatical pro-Dempsey view which clouds any unbiased thinking in regards to this situation.

    I dont need to fall back on something because there is a photo of Dempsey and Wills signing a contract because I know what that contract stated. It was well publicized. Read the New York Times or better yet the Chicago Tribune coverage of it. It was a hollow, meaningless document that was designed from day one to NOT be fulfilled.


    We can go around and around about this but you have your belief, which is grounded in hero-worship, and I have mine which is grounded in what Ive actually read and seen. I doubt either will change the others mind."
     
    Nighttrain likes this.
  2. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

    17,713
    7,975
    Sportsbook:
    876
    Jan 30, 2014
    Bump. Any takers?

    What's more of a difference, the 8 pounds that separate a junior-feather from a junior-lightweight or the 45 pounds that separate a Rocky Marciano from an Ike Ibeabuchi?
     
    SuzieQ49 likes this.
  3. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    8,132
    1,620
    Sportsbook:
    20,560
    Jul 1, 2015
    I've backed up everything I've said with photo evidence.
     
  4. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    8,132
    1,620
    Sportsbook:
    20,560
    Jul 1, 2015
    Here you go moron:
    This content is protected


    Red faced much?
     
  5. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

    1,114
    244
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 27, 2015
    45 pounds but does Ibeabuchi move like a junior lightweight.
     
  6. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

    17,713
    7,975
    Sportsbook:
    876
    Jan 30, 2014
    :elefant:

    Does Marciano move like a super bantamweight?
     
    mcvey likes this.
  7. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

    1,114
    244
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 27, 2015
    Sadly Rock is closer to that than Ibeauchi was .
     
    mcvey likes this.
  8. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    42,750
    12,939
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 11, 2005
    Why do you attack the messenger rather than respond to the message?
     
    mrkoolkevin and SuzieQ49 like this.
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

    36,025
    1,932
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 14, 2005
    Because Dempsey fans can’t handle the truth about their hero. He was a great puncher but has severe holes in his legacy from ducking the two outstanding contenders and drawing the color line.
     
  10. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

    2,049
    1,504
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 9, 2017
    How about the ~120 pounds that separate Ibeabuchi and Bob Sapp?
     
  11. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

    17,713
    7,975
    Sportsbook:
    876
    Jan 30, 2014
    I can address that one next but can we stick to the question that's been presented for now? In your opinion, what's more of a difference, the 8 pounds that separate a junior-feather from a junior-lightweight or the 45 pounds that separate a Rocky Marciano from an Ike Ibeabuchi?
     
  12. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

    2,049
    1,504
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 9, 2017
    I'll have to look up those weight classes. They're the two that come between super-downeyweight and junior-cottonweight, right?
    Just a moment...

    Okay, so we're talking 122 and 130. Now the problem with your question is that it's so imprecise as to be almost meaningless, and like nearly all people who ask imprecise questions, when this is pointed out you will no doubt accuse your interlocutor of being evasive. Not in the slightest.

    It seems obvious enough that the 45 pounds separating Marciano and Ibeabuchi will have a more pronounced effect upon the balance of trade-offs, but this does not support the conclusion you think it does -certainly not without a much more thoroughly fleshed out argument.
     
  13. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

    17,713
    7,975
    Sportsbook:
    876
    Jan 30, 2014
    It's a relatively vague, general question but "so imprecise as to be almost meaningless" seems like a stretch. I don't see how the question's impreciseness inhibits us from having a productive discussion of it. But if you could be more precise in letting me know your objections to the question, I would be glad to modify it.

    BTW, exactly what conclusion do you think that I think my question supports?
     
  14. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

    17,713
    7,975
    Sportsbook:
    876
    Jan 30, 2014
    PS -- Humor doesn't always translate well online, and I didn't get this joke. Is admitting your lack of familiarity with the lower weight classes your way of thumbing your nose at those divisions, or was this meant to be self-deprecatory?
     
  15. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

    2,049
    1,504
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 9, 2017
    It's thumbing my nose at the sheer number of weight classes and their name changes, and indirectly all the alphabet soup titles.

    The conclusion I take you to insulate is that increases in weight scale more or less closely with a steadily climbing single "advantage quotient" that follows a linear rather than (say) logarithmic scale. To be sure you could plausibly deny this, but if it's not what you mean I think you have some burden to be a little more clear from the outset.

    An analogy may help illustrate why I consider this question...misleading.
    Suppose we're discussing military rifle cartridges rather than weight classes, and someone asks archly, which difference in stopping power is bigger: that between .223 and 7.62 NATO or 7.62 and a 4 bore big game cartridge?

    Obviously the latter, but this doesn't imply that a big game cartridge is remotely appropriate for general infantry use, let alone superior. You'e be carrying around a forty pound rifle (at least) with a capacity of two shots.
    Note: this is not an argument from analogy; it's just an analogy that deliberately exaggerates for the sake of illustration.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018