Why Does This Forum Love Sonny Liston

All that only to be a fraction of “Big” James’s ability and have half his stamina… more like “Small” George. Toney via TKO 9.

 

His loses in his prime were seriously impacted by gassing out and he never went 12 in his prime except in a loss.

 

And Tyson probably hit way harder than Marciano. Liston probably hit way harder than Tyson. Being capable of knocking out a superheavyweight is something everyone remotely near that conversation can do. But Tyson needed to weigh an absurd amount to have that power. If that was not the case he wouldn't have sacrificed so much speed. If he could hit as hard as Liston he would not need to. If he could hit as hard as Langford he would not need to.


Liston has 85 inch reach way out of proportion with his frame and could knock people out with jabs. He doesn't need much proof at all to get him in that conversation smaller guys do. Marciano didn't just not knock out superheavyweights. He was super small and he did not have automatic knockdown or knockout power against his better smaller opponents. With Liston the lack of KOs against superheavyweights is all you have. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

Sure, but you're using a double standard. If Bivol moved up to heavyweight and weighed 185 or 195 on fight night against say, Dubois. Dubois flattens him. We both know that everyone would say "big deal, he knocked out a blown up 195 pound light heavyweight". But put Bivol back in 1958 against Liston and Liston flattens him, it's evidence of ATG punching power and that he hit harder than Mike Tyson.

I think Liston would hit hard enough to hurt modern sized heavies. I don't think AJ could just plow forward through Listons best shots, completely disregarding any defense. However, I think this talk about him hitting WAY harder than Mike Tyson is nonsense because nothing shows that and Tyson’s power is more proven vs modern sized heavies. Frank Bruno would be a heavyweight if he were fighting today. So would Andrew Golota who Tyson’s punching power seriously injured. So would Trevor Berbick. Floyd Patterson would likely be at light heavyweight and maybe cruiserweight. So would Machen, Harris, Howard King, Mike Dejohn and Folley. Cleveland Williams might be at heavyweight, but at 6'3 210-215 pounds, he could boil down to 199 with day before weigh ins and fight at cruiserweight as Usyk is a little bigger than Williams was.

Also, Tyson wasn't excessively big, he was 218-220 in his prime.

 

Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdez, Floyd Patterson (Twice)...

And they were all good when he fought them. Liston had to work through nearly the top ten rankings to get a shot at the belt.
He left a trail of broken, frightened men. Everyone that fought him was terrified afterwards, except Ali. His hands were huge, his arms freakishly long, his natural left hand power shot was his converted jab, and it knocked teeth out (A f$$$$$$ jab!).
Nice as he could be, unless you pissed him off.
Liston was the man.

 

Good point about stamina. It was most likely a combination of George running longer and also being relaxed in the ring. DelaHoya is an example of a fighter with too much tension, too tight, never really learned how to back it down a notch. Duran as fierce as he was was relaxed in the ring.

 

Yes! 1000% on the money, Duran didn’t care checkout how unfazed Toney was! Another one is Ali, Ali was the compete antithesis of George in Zaire he was going through the motions… GF in his comeback picked his shots, took it easy and didn’t force the KO like a real pro!

 

The proof is what you see with your eyes, the worst acting job in history by Liston

 

What? He got dropped off Ali taking a short pivot to his right, it’s a basic move that even I could teach you, he landed a good right hand when Liston didn’t see it coming is all…Liston got up and continued fighting, Walcott waved it off at a weird time, it wasn’t a “fix” it was bad reffing, Ali beat him up the first time and he quit… Liston came to settle the score, trained very hard for this fight and Jersey Joe ruined it lol.

 

Oh geez! Jimmy Lennon at ringside said that punch wouldn't have busted a grape. Liston started to get up and comically rolled back over. Ali had even heard the rumors of a fix and in the famous photo screamed , get up! ain't nobody gonna believe this s%$.
Except you I suppose

 

Go through all the threads discussing this topic. Theres plenty of anecdotes of people saying Liston was the hardest they ever saw hit a bag. The whole reason one has a power jab is they can generate the power of a swing with mimimal effort.

220 is obese for 5 ft 10 and its a weight that put him at a severe disadvantage. Name another great HW Tysons size who chose to fight at that weight? Fraziers the closest one I can think of and he was almost 2 inches taller. If Tyson had all time great power he would not have weighed that much he wouldn't have needed to.

 

I've seen Jersey Joe making a mockery out a refereeing and Liston not wanting to get up with Ali all over him.

And Cus d'Amato

So, you have no proof of a fix? Got it! Thought so. Check Sonny's version tho, it makes more sense than some conspiracy theories with no backing:

'Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all there was to it. Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

So there was Walcott and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again. And Nat Fleischer began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fleischer says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fleischer stopped the fight.

I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you. They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way. They should have people that don't get excited.'

 

I couldn’t care less about what an announcer at ring side said I can see it on film lol believe whatever you want, it was a fix by the mafia it doesn’t matter to me lol.

 

Did Tyson look obese in the ring? He was 218 lbs when he stopped Spinks and he looked very lean and in shape to me. He was 217 vs Ruddock and looked lean and in shape. It wasn't possible for him to be any lighter and also keep the things that made him great. Tyson looked a lot more solid at 218 than Frazier did at 205. They had different body types. Tyson was more mesomorphic than Frazier.

Was Tyson supposed to get down to 175? Then he wouldn't have been Mike Tyson. I'd pick Spinks to work a 175 Tyson over. His body wasn't made to be that light.

 

Both Tyson and Foreman had stamina.

Not on the level of a Joe Frazier or Rocky Marciano but you can't do what they did without having good stamina.