Why doesn't Lennox have universal approval ?

What was his skill ? The holding ? Cherry-picking ?
Wins against problematic fighters ? Lucky ko wins?

 

you see in my opinion every thing you just said proves what i was saying,

you claim cherry picking? I think that is cheap. I think he had trouble putting some fights together because fights are hard to put together.

you say holding was his skill ? I agree and it was very effective and made it hard for anyone to man handle him and in fight against him.

wins against problematic fighters? I don't even know what you mean by this exactly, i could take it two different ways and i am not going to guess,,,,

lucky KO wins?

I think that is bull, lucky? I don't think so, Lewis could hit very hard from long range better than any heavy i recall, Lewis did not blast guys with great chins out but he certainly blasted a lot of decent fighters out of fights early and that wasn't luck.

 

No , im not. He took Tyson to court in 2003 to try force another fight, after he had already beat the washed up shell of the man.

Why didn't he force the fight in 1996 when he was still half a fighter like he did for his ghost in 2003?

He also hid behind the WBC knowing Bowe would be stripped.

101:00 in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3KqXVqweeE

Lewis is overrated beyond belief. His career is an illusion. He fought in a great era and the best guy he fought was Vitali from the next era. And he made him look like an utter baffoon.

His career is short on big names and he needed to attempts to beat MaCall and Rahamn

 

Skillwise, Lewis had a very good jab, controlled range well and fought very well for a big man on the inside. He wasn't as good as Bowe on the inside but no other big man was. But Lewis is far superior on the inside compared to other big men like Wlad, Vitali, Grant, Akinwande, Fury etc. Is he the most skilled heavyweight ever? No not even close but he had skills, that combined with his size made him exceptional.

Yes he held sometimes, it was a big part of the improvements Steward brought to his game but it was rarely excessive. He also wasn't scared to stand and trade when he had to as proven by the fights against Mercer and Vitali.

Cherry picking? Who did he cherry pick. He agreed to a 90/10 split in favour of Bowe only for Bowe to change his mind and dump the WBC belt. He then signed to fight Bowe in the spring of 95 when he was champion and Bowe had no belts, but lost to McCall. He signed to fight Holyfield in Nov 94 but Evander lost to Moorer. He took Tyson to court to enforce his mandatory in 96 but Tyson paid him step aside money and then vacated. Lewis looked for the big fights and signed to fight Holyfield and Bowe in the 90's but they never came about due to losses. A fighter cherry picking doesn't sign to fight the 2 of best in his era in or near their primes.

I will agree that those losses were not lucky punches. He was flawed when he faced McCall and McCall had a master tactician in Steward in his corner, that's what beat Lewis that night. As for Rahman, Lewis only has himself to blame, he didn't take him seriously and paid the price. It wasn't bad luck that cost him the title it was negligence and arrogance that led to that loss.

 

He did try and force the fight in 96. But King paid him step aside money and guaranteed Lewis would be next. So Lewis would get $4 million and when he did face Tyson he wouldn't just be getting a shot at the WBC title but the WBA title as well. It made sense for Lewis to allow Tyson to unify, it built the fight up and gave Lewis a 2nd title. Tyson of course vacated instead of fighting Lewis. How could Lewis prevent Tyson vacating? He couldn't he was fooled by King.

He didn't hide behind the WBC. He agreed to a 10% share of the purse only for Bowe and Newman to withdraw their offer. He took their joke offer and they still didn't want Lewis. Lewis then signed to face Bowe when he was champion and Bowe was without a title but lost to McCall.

As for the video evidence. Bowe is hardly impartial. Of course he said Lewis was hiding behind the WBC, the WBC tried to force him to face Lewis. Fact is Bowe offered him a joke 10% split which Lewis initially declined but then agreed so Bowe dumped his title. He then offered Lewis big money but was offering Lewis a small split and was taking the far bigger share of the purse when Lewis was making more money than Bowe that year.

 

I believe that to be false.

Lewis was hiding behind HBO this time. He was contractually locked in with a different network and they were making un reasonable demands to King for Tyson , knowing Tyson would end up giving up the belt in an exact re creating of the strategy used on Bowe. Lewis got the vacant WBC belt for the second time through court tactics.

Lewis was looking for 50/50 split and wouldn't accept the standard 25% and wanted options on Bowe knowing Newman lose his chit. They also waited out the deadline , dragging their feet under Kings advice , which got Bowe stripped.

 

Fact is HBO and Showtime work together for the big fights, otherwise Lewis/Tyson would have never happened years later. Lewis simply enforced his mandatory it's not like he was asking for something he wasn't entitled to. But in this case you maybe right that the networks didn't want to budge at that time. But that doesn't mean Lewis didn't want the fight, or he cherry picked his way through his career as some have suggested.

What was Lewis to do in a situation where he was the deserved mandatory yet the 2 networks didn't want to work together. Should he give up his mandatory status, give up his claim on the title or do what he had to get the title and make a living.

Lewis initially was only offered 10% not the standard 25%. Maloney countered with the standard 75/25 split which Newman refused. The 90/10 split was a low ball offer which Lewis initially declined but then accepted. Bowe then withdrew the 10% offer as they never believed Lewis would accept such a low offer. A clear duck.

Later on Bowe and Newman offered Lewis a 66/34 split when Lewis had the WBC belt so he was entitled to more than the 25% a mandatory challenger would get. At this point Lewis wasn't just a mandatory, he was a title holder looking to unify. The problem here with Bowe's offer was that Lewis was making more than Bowe at this time. Bowe made $7 million for his defences against Ferguson and Dokes, while Lewis made $9.15 million against Tucker and $8 million against Bruno. Why would Lewis take such a small share when he was earning more at the time and they both held titles?

Also when Bowe and Lewis did eventually sign to fight when Lewis was WBC champion and Bowe had just lost to Evander he offered Bowe a 60/40 split. So it's pretty clear based on those figures Bowe and Newman were low balling Lewis if Lewis was willing to offer Bowe more then Bowe didn't even have a title. Lewis wanted Bowe with or without a title. Bowe only wanted it when he had nothing to lose.

 

Yes, but 2002 was a different set of circumstances altogether . Mike hadn't been a champ in 6 years and he was just doing whatever he could to make a dollar.
This article curtsey of Unforgiven sheds more light on the matter

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...CDIQ6AEwAzgy#v=onepage&q=lennox lewis&f=false

Lewis was offered 10 million to fight Bowe and then a further 12 million that were both turned down

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-14/sports/1993134195_1_lewis-newman-dan-duva

King was n the side lines advising Lewis what needed to done done to get Bowe stripped so his man Tucker could fight for the belt.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/10/sports/boxing-lewis-camp-says-bring-on-10-million-offer.html

 

I have him at #3 All Time Heavyweights. Just behind Ali & Louis.

 

I'm not sure they were flukes.
I think people need to be very fair-minded and non-biased about these things, which is rare.

I mean, going from 0-1 to 1-1 against a fighter proves a lot, but it still only makes you 1-1, - even stevens - head-to-head.

And actually the man who won the FIRST match deserves perhaps the most credit of the two ... because if that's not the case then we'd have to discount all those wins where fighters only faced the opponent once.
1-0 by KO usually counts a clear enough dominance. It's only really when a big name, a champion or a star fighter loses by a crushing KO that a rematch is accepted.

Hence, Lewis could demand an immediate rematch with Rahman, yet Rahman gets dismissed as "has been Rahman" when Lewis draws level.

 

so you think that is all on Lewis?

 

Yes the $10 million offer was the 34% split I mentioned and the $12million was still only a 34% split or less as Bowe share went up more than Lewis', when the TV network increased the total size of the pot.

The $10 million was offered after Lewis had already been offered $9.15 million to face Tucker 2 days before when the fight went to purse bids. So offering Lewis a mere $850,000 more when he already had a very similar purse agreed was hardly a very tempting offer. Why would Lewis short change himself an only get $10 million when he was getting $9.15 million to face Tucker?

Even the $12 million offer was pathetic when you consider Lewis wasn't just some other challenger then, he was a title holder having beaten Tucker when the $12 million offer was made. Lewis now had leverage and deserved more based upon what he was already making and the title he now held. So Lewis with a title and making this fight a unification fight was only worth a mere $2 million more? The TV network increased the pot after Lewis won because it was then a unification fight but Bowe's purse also increased so while it seemed Bowe was giving a bigger share, he wasn't, he just had a larger pot to draw from.

Had Bowe's team not changed their mind when Lewis accepted the $3 million purse or had just accepted the 75/25 split Maloney offered they would have not needed to pay Lewis as much as $10 million in the first place but they decided to give him a title and the leverage that went with it. Huge mistake and a terrible piece of management if they were serious in making a fight with Lewis.

These are the facts. Bowe low balled Lewis and only wanted to pay him 10%. Not even Wlad who gets criticised for bullying opponents in negotiations dared to go as low as 10% when he fought Pulev.

Lewis declined then accepted the 10% split only for Bowe to change his mind, fact. A clear duck.

When Lewis was about to make $9.15 million he offered Lewis a mere $850,000 more. A clear low ball offer.

When Lewis was then WBC champion, making a fight a unification fight the TV network sweetened the pot but Newman increased Lewis' share by less than they increased Bowe's purse. Offering Lewis only a 34% split.

Lewis' purse against Tucker was more than Bowe had ever earned. Bowe best purse at the time was only $8 million. Lewis' made $9.15 million for Tucker and then $8 million against Bruno. So Lewis was an equal if not bigger draw at that time, yet Lewis didn't get offered 50/50, he wasn't even offered 60/40 but 66/34 which based upon the actual numbers at the time was a low ball offer.

When both did eventually sign to fight for spring 95, Lewis was champion, Bowe had no belts. Yet did Lewis with everything to lose low ball offer Bowe from his position of strength? No he offered him a 60/40 split and behold the fight gets made. Moral of the story don't low ball offer an opponent and expect the fight to be made.

 

God the kids around here.

Tyson himself said Ruddock hit like a mule and it was a contested enough fight to warrant a rematch.

You may be surprised to know that they generally don't have rematches if one fighter was blown out of the ring. That said, I will admit the term life or death was a exaggeration.

 

Ya, he seemed to have his share of lucky KO wins.

 

Great post

Vitali indeed exposed the lummox