Why doesn't Lennox have universal approval ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by markclitheroe, Mar 13, 2015.



  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    So do you think Frazier would have beat this version of Foreman at any point of his career?

    I would accept Frazier was past his peak by the time he fought Foreman. His prime wasn't anything like as long as the Ali's, Lewis's etc. I'd accept he didn't train his best too. I can't remember how much surfaced before the actual fight tho, which it certainly did in the case of Lewis - Rahman. Only recently i also read a mag claiming he was ready to be taken right before the McCall fight because he was too sloppy and flawed. Such stories were no-where to be found a couple of years later.

    I would struggle to swallow anyone trying to say any version of Frazier would have beat Foreman.

    At least with Lewis and Rahman he came back and showed he was off color and totally schooled Rahman in a classic tale of revenge.

    He also got McCall back in there and avenged that defeat. He offered McCall huge money for an immediate rematch but like Rahman, McCall did not want to get back in there with him, a story in itself.

    We know Lewis at his best could beat these guys. There isn't anyone we know would beat Lewis at his finest based on who he fought.

    Even a small amount of common sense tells us Frazier never beats peak George.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I usually have Lewis #3 and used to have him #4. This probably wouldn't change without the losses. I could entertain having him above Louis based on opposition and Lewis going out on top, which he did anyway.

    It would drag them a bit closer together but i am quite satisfied with Lewis winning the return matches. Louis also had one helluva career as well.

    Louis' opposition is comfortably below amazing in my books. There's also the Walcott question. He was however devastating in a great many fights and really dominant for a long time.

    My top 3 would probably stay the same i think. Ali beating Liston, Frazier and Foreman make him untouchable for me, especially allied to the ridiculous amount of contenders and top contenders he whupped. Ali and Louis also missed some prime time too.

    Resume wise Larry Holmes doesn't have all that much on his list. He also avoided anyone with a pulse post Witherspoon. I still usually have him right behind Lewis at #4 after earlier having him at #3.

    Ali's quality of wins absolutely dwarfs Lewis, Louis and Holmes. 90% of the time these are my top 4. I feel very comfortable with it.
     
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  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't think is a common theme among Lewis fans at all. It's a common theme among the majority of boxing fans full stop. Plenty of non Lewis fans in here still rate him above Wlad. Plenty of fans neutral toward Lewis rate him above Wlad too. The simple fact is the majority of people rate him over Wlad full stop.
     
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  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    No, I don't think Frazier beats Foreman any time but I don't know how much he could have improved his performance against him. I think it's a clear loss well inside the distance, probably.
    These are just hypotheticals though.

    As for ranking Lewis, I'm not talking about "head to head" on his best night stuff. If you asked me does Lewis at his best beat Rahman at his best? I'd say YES. You would say definitely the second fight represents exactly that. I'd say that's probably true.

    It's not about "could he at his best" do X, Y and Z. Because the fact is, he showed it took him two attempts to beat him. In the real world that's what happened.
    That has to be less good than turning up best the first time and beating him once, in my book.
     
  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    So, Lewis losing like that to Rahman seems to make not one iota of difference to your placement of him in the rankings.

    If you're satisfied with Louis get knocked out and responding with a knockot you should be more than satisfied with Joe Louis's close disputed 15 round decision over Walcott ( "the Walcott question"), (even if we call it a loss) ,being answered when he knocked out Walcott in the rematch.

    Holmes and Louis don't have losses as bad as Lewis getting sparked by Rahman.
    I think Holmes' win resume easily equals Lewis's.
    The other day you were arguing an ancient Holmes proved a lot in the 1990s with his win against Mercer. You also pointed out he had a close fight with McCall.
    Well, if those impress you, with Holmes being a DECADE AND MORE past his prime, they should also put prime Lewis to shame a bit. Logically speaking.

    Holmes, in his worse form yet at that point in his career, had a pretty bad loss to Michael Spinks but that was still a tricky 15 round fight, he wasn't obliterated, and I think he won the rematch. He also had a longer, busier reign at the top going into that fight.
    Everything points towards Holmes above Lewis.
    In my opinion, it's a no-brainer.
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I would rate Lewis above Wlad too, now that we can view clearly with Wlad's career over.
    I'm certainly not objecting to Lewis being placed above Wlad.

    I'm questioning the reasoning behind those who say Lewis is elite top 5 while at the same time dismissing and diminishing any notion towards Wlad being anywhere higher than "the lower top 15", as I've seen many times.
    There's a few who might begrudgingly accept Wlad could possibly scrape into the top 10 or 12, while enthusiastically declaring Lewis top 3 or 4.
    Then we hear about how great the middling contenders of the 1990s HWs were, if they appear on Lewis's resume, while Wlad's endless parade of challengers are all dismissed as "bums" or products of "poorest HW era ever".
    Funnily enough, some of these are also championing/hoping Anthony Joshua as 'the next Lennox Lewis' despite the fact he barely scraped by (skin of his teeth!) the oldest version of "glass chin" Wlad.
    I detect a lot of favouritism with people who look to undermine Wladimir while boosting Lewis.

    And, by the way, I doubt Wlad would make my top 10.
    But I'd put him close to Lewis.
     
  7. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    So, you're saying we know at his best Lewis could beat McCall and Rahman. We also know Maskev, Tua, Frank Bruno and others could beat one or both of those guys.

    That doesn't in any way make you next statement "There isn't anyone we know would beat Lewis at his finest based on who he fought" a logical statement.

    Also, who did Lewis beat that we know "was at his finest." Certainly not Tyson and Holyfield, who are probably his best two wins.

    I would say the following guys would likely beat Lewis at his finest, if they too were at their finest:

    Riddick Bowe
    Mike Tyson
    Evander Holyfield
    Muhammad Ali
    Larry Holmes
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    One thing Lewis did do, he avenged his 2 losses.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Well that's personal opinion not proof.
     
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    From 2000 until the end of 2012 Wlad had 24 fights . I can only find Ring rankings for 5 of those opponents 2,at no10,1 at number 4 ,and 2 at number 6.
    Taking 12 years of Lewis's career 91-2003,= 30 opponents, 16 of them ranked.
    1 at no 1
    4 at no 2
    2 at no 4
    2 at no5
    1 at no 6
    1 at no7
    1 at no 8
    1 at no 9
     
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  11. GALVATRON

    GALVATRON Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Bowe got more recognition than Lewis did and thats only bc he was from the states. Bowe did nothing compared to the success Lewis had with the exception he doesnt have an L on his reseme and thats only bc he lucked out by getting DQ wins against Golota.

    Many fans then were also unhappy with that era just like any modern current era bc instead of seeing whats there ,they imagine things were better back in the day,this is the norm of boxing fans IQ. We can clearly see how stacked the 90's were it wasnt hard at all .Fans just arent happy at any time really with HW's ...lol

    The answer to this thread really is Boxing had been dominated by the U.S ,it didnt really migrate to foreigners then.If Lewis were around today he would be widely popular,maybe not Joshua popular but he would be popular moreso than the 90's.
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    McCall and Rahman are just two of dozens Lewis beat.

    Why was my statement not logical? The guy beat every man he ever fought.

    I don't believe anyone would be thinking i meant Holyfield and Tyson were peak and his wins over them proves he would beat them at any time. The simple fact of the matter is they didn't show, at this point of time, they could beat him. Now if both these guys beat Lewis at the time they fought we would obviously know they were better and would beat him at any career point. Lewis was on the way out by the time he fought Tyson but Tyson more so and we could be fair in saying a bit better Lewis would not beat a significantly better Tyson. Thing is he beat them anyways.

    Vitali would certainly compete as one of Lewis' best wins too particularly given how much some write off Tyson.

    That's your personal opinion on who would beat Lewis. I would only take Ali from that list and believe he would beat Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Holmes would be the next toughest but i give him an even money chance there too, maybe a touch higher even.

    Lewis for me personally is the second or third best H2H heavyweight in history.
     
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  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    True.
    Maskaev actually fought Rahman twice, beat him twice. Knocked him out of the ring twice !


    It's a good question.
    He certainly didn't defeat Oliver McCall at his finest either.
    In fact, McCall's preparation for Lewis 2 and the question of whether he should even have been in the ring at that point has been the subject of much discussion. And then there's the "Manny Steward" factor. If Lewis at his finest needs to be the Lewis "under Steward's tutelage", as his fans often repeated (correctly), obviously the same is just as true for Oliver McCall.

    That's a point worth considering in these exercises of hypotheticals. While Steward apparently and reasonably considered Lewis the far better talent to work with, if we could imagine Steward and his clone working opposite camps/ corners in a prime v prime Lewis-McCall match, I wouldn't necessarily bet on Lewis.
    The reason being : McCall's chin and adequate power.
    Manny's Lewis might well be able to box rings around McCall but probably not KO him, whereas Manny's McCall might well be able to persevere and capitalize on any vital mistake. It only takes one mistake. The best Lewis might literally have to box flawlessly against a Manny-trained highly-tuned McCall.
    It's an intriguing scenario.
    Cloning dead trainers, that's what the classic forum is all about.
     
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  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Keep at it. You'll have him at #1 eventually. :)
     
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    You too, he might reach #16.

    Heah to head number 2, not overall. I have him #3 on my ATG list as per previous. He is a long way below Ali H2H for me and there's a couple basically on par with Lewis for number 2 H2H. If that's ok.

    I'll get to your other posts but can only address short ones whilst at work unfortunately.
     
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