ESB classic is THE place to go for knowledge and opinions on the murderers row, yet I feel that this has turned into something of a nuthugging exercise when it comes to the most well known of the row Charley Burley. Obviously Stoneys list has him at ten pete has him at seven and sweet pea has him at 20 i believe. No doubt he was a brilliant fighter but when his resume is broken down I think other members of the row, such as Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall have a case to be ranked above him. There is obviously the quotes from other members of the row stating that Burley was the best fighter of the lot. But then again Oscar De la Hoya recently stated that Arturo Gatti was the hardest puncher he ever faced; bluntly put sometimes fighters talk out of their ass. Marshall for example beat Ezzard Charles, Jake Lamotta, Burley himself, Holman Williams and Joey Maxim, this resume; in particular the KO win of Charles gives him a case to be ranked higher than Burley. What are your opinions on Burleys ranking and where he stands amongst the murderers row? :good
There's no two ways about it; Williams and Marshall can both rank above Burley very confortably. Burley is ranked so highly because of his extraordinary style, captured near his prime against a bigger opponent on film, his own excellent resume which is outstanding, pound for pound nicities (Burley is smaller than Marshall, for example) and finally, as you mention, contemporary opinion. There are some accounts of those that saw Burley in the flesh that literally rank him as the best fighter they ever saw, and he was hugely admired by both Futch and Moore, to the exclusion of all other fighters in the case of more, who perhaps has the most expansive ledger in the history of the fight game for quality of opponents faced.
His resumé is still very, very good. Beat Archie Moore, Holman Williams, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith, Jack Chase, Fritzie Zivic and Cocoa Kid. And it could of been greater, we all now that Robinson never showed an interest to fight him, Marshall never rematched him, Zivic went to incredible lengths to avoid him while he was the champion, Billy Conn turned him down. Even Freddie Cochrane turned him down and Burley offered him the fight for free. Not to mention Zivic got a shot at Armstrong despite being ranked lower than Burley having been beaten by him the year before.
Just a note on Zivic-Armstrong, Burley had a hand injury around that time and was basically out of contention for that particular title shot. Having said that, Burley's repeated advances were rebuffed, supposedly, with the explanation that Armstrong was going to vacate and move back down to lighweight. I think Zivic's duck is the slipperiest one, which is a little unfair given that he matched Burley 3 times.
I was hoping you'd be the first to reply Mcgrain. Did Moore actually consistently claim Burley to be the best he ever fought? Although Burley does look great on the film footage we have I think that the whole Robinson duck episode ( did it ever happen? ) and like you said the testimonies of old fighters elevates him when perhaps it shouldnt. On a sidenote do you know why Marshall and Burley never fought a second time?
Well Zivic and manager Luke Carney did buy out Burley's contract when he was champion with the very specific intention that they would not be getting back in the ring with each other.
Yeah, there are multiple quotes on the subject. He also named Eddie Booker, but was more likely to mention Burley. It has to be noted that the two became friends. Burley offered up a careers best payday to Robinson and Robinson turned it down. That much seems to be true. Having said that, so did guys like LaMotta and Cerdan, Burley was basically a problem that nobody needed. It should be noted that Burley was at no time the #1 contender for any title that Robinson ever held. So it's what you like. Yeah, it's fair to be cautios, that's for sure. On the other hand, Futch ranked him as the #1 ever to hail from Pittsburgh according to Larry Holmes, and Greb hailed from that city. It's hard to ignore these guys when you get to thinking about who they were and what they knew about the sport. Who knows? Marshall did move onto the LHW division, so perhaps a rematch wasn't a gimme given that Burley was never going to be big enough for that division. Additionally, it was a clear win for Marshall, perhaps the two felt the mattered was settled. As an aside, Burley is supposed to have fought Marshall with a broken hand. I'm satisfied that no MW in history can beat Lloyd under those circumstances.
Yep, Marshall and Williams have massive claims to be rated in a top 20-30. Dunno why they aint in my top 50 I will have to find a place for 'em, both superb. But Burley is fairly ranked IMO. A fantastic fighter, clearly brilliant on film, never stopped.....imagine how lofty his ranking would be if he wasn't ducked.
Robinson, Cochrane, Armstrong, LaMotta and Cerdan are all supposed to have declined an invitation to the dance at some point or another, so yeah, assuming he does as well as some of use would have expected him to do with that level of competition his monumental standing would have been enhanced.
Apparently Billy Conn turned him down aswell. $7,500, and then a later offer of $10K plus a percentage of gate receipts.
Or it could have dropped his ranking ?? Who knows how Burley would have fared against Cerdan, Robinson etc. On your other point about Marshall and Williams.. this thread has clearly served a useful purpose!
I would pick him to beat Robinson prime-for-prime if they were to fight 2/3 times. He might lose in a single-fight between the two though, and he might lose a series split 2-1.
Conn declined Burley because he was in pursuit of Louis. Even a Burley die-hard can't hold that against Billy.