I agree; in fact I have both those guys rated over him. I also rate Bivins over him as well, and in fact rate him as the best of the Row (at least the ones that never ended up winning titles). I think Eddie Booker rates fairly comparably with him as well.
Bivins is a great shout and was very unfortunate that his prime cam during WWII. He does seem to be forgotten about yet has victories over Charles, Moore, Marshall AND Maxim. All those guys hold numerous wins over him later on though.. that I think is the problem with Bivins, he just seemed to burn out after 46. He went on that great undefeated streak but then just started losing all over the place. Maybe it was just the guys he was fighting had developed even more (in the case of Charles and Moore) or were just too big. Where would you have Bivins on an all time list though?
Any reports of the Marshall fight, its down as an SD, with Burley going down twice. Marshall may have got the W, but did he prove himself the better man that night?
:blood Burley seemingly got the better of Williams in their series, the Marshall fight was a close SD despite Marshall being the bigger man. Bivins was the biggest of the Murderers Row being a LHW/HW, Burley was only a WW/MW, it should be expected he'd coe out on top. Bivins wasnt as consistant agains the best as Burley. Bookers resume doesnt come close
First the good news for us Burley apologists. Yes, the decision was split. One judge gave it to Charley 56-52. The other judge and the ref had it to Burley 57-53 and 58-52 respectively. Joe Herman, who owned a gym in San Francisco saw the fight and said that Burley had been "****ed over, he made that an easy win." According to the LA times he did very well down the straight, coming "back in th latter stages of the fight to make up lost ground". It also said that Burley did "plenty of scoring on a lighter, less impressive scale", so it may have been a what-you-like kind of fight, a Hagler-Sugar in reverse. As for the KO's, Burley was not hurt for either one, taking a 2 and 4 count and showing no ill affects. Marshall dropped him twice whilst they were in close, first with a right, then with a left. It must be noted that his hand injury was serious and "practically made him one-handed". The Herald Express: "Burley had to keep his right in an ice pack 24 hours prior to the opening bell to reduce swelling in order to get it past inspectors". Finally, Marshall was the bigger man. Probably at his best at 160-165, Burley seemed at his best around between 150 and 155. Marshall had a 6lb advantage on fight night. Now for the bad news. Firstly, Burley may not have been hurt for the KO but he was seriously hurt in between them, getting hit with a right that "turned his legs to rubber". The press liked the verdict, The Evening Herald scored it 7-3 for Marshall and was scathing of Burley. The LA Times found for Marshall and went so far as to cal Burley "washed up". Marhsall himself: "It was a tight, tough fight, but I got the decision and I deserved it". Burley himself labelled Marshall his toughest opponent. Which wraps things up rather nicely. Marshall was bigger, uninjured and also one of the very best of the day. Burley ranked him #1, Overlin ranked him #1. For his own part, after trouncing LaMotta, Marshall opined that Burley would have "no problem" beating Jake. This loss is nothing to be ashamed of.
Interesting stuff, where do you get all this info from Mac? It sounds like a close run affair, I wonder if Herman was friends with Burley and hence biased? Was the ref that scored to Marshall also the third and decisive judge in this 1, we know from British title fights the ref tends to make a poor judge Any write ups on the Charles fights?
No bother. I get it from all over and just whack it on the computer every time i come across a morsel. You could do a lot worse than to read the Otty book on Burley if you are curious, it comes really easy that one. Burley worked at Herman's gym, so yeah it's possible he was biased. On the other hand, it's possible that he just saw the same thing that the judge who scored for Burley scored - more punches landed but with less on them. One judge scored for each man and the referee was the deciding factor, but neither man made any moves associated with a questionable decision. My impression is that it went the right way. If Burley had two good hands, who knows? I have some bits and bobs on Charles, but nothing with me here.
This thread reminds me of that quote from Burley Paraphrased of course. 'God asked me and Walker Smith Jr, who wanted to become Ray Robinson. Walker Smith got his hand up quicker!' Burley IMO is an equal of Ray Robinson.
Personally I dont think they can compare. Watching Robinson box is like watching poetry in motion. The guy is basically perfection in my eyes. Burley was an ATG but there only three other guys, you know their names, who are equal to him.
I think Burley at his best could definately beat a prime Robinson. I know I said that yesterday, but that was merely that he could win 1 out of a 3 series. If they fight only once, I think Burley has as good a chance as Robinson of coming out with the W. Just a styles thing, I feel. Not to mention Burley had the ability and intangibles on a level of Robinson anyway.
Watching Burley box is just as good IMO from a technical stand point, Robinson was just much more apparent in his ability whereas you have to appreciate Burley in detail to realize how great he really was.