Why is Calzaghe not being heavily critized for blatently ducking Pavlik?

except ottke didn't have opponents like eubanks , reed , lacey and Kessler .

he also didn't have the WBC , WBO and IBF all at once so you can tack that on to the one more thing he did better then Ottke and will no doubt be ranked ahead of ottke at 168. and Joe would be considered the Liner champ at 168..

 

You know there's a major problem when a man(Lacy) with 21 professional fights runs after him for a long time to make a fight that got him the Linear title.

 

Look Iv never been a fan of Joe but at this stage of his career , he set and he knows it .. the only way pavlic get a shot at Joe is if Arum cough up some serious dough , and if Arum doesn't then the fight is a wash let it go and let joe be on his way.. and Ill leave it at that..

 

I would say he's HOF Material. But his record is too lacking for serious ATG consideration. But I can't say how Ottke's record frompractically the same time hurts both.

 

Did Pavlik v. Calzaghe become a "definitive" no go after the Lockett fight? :think

 

Even though I don't really agree with the typical approach he's taking and dislike the backing up he gets for it but that's your opinion in the end, was fun discussing. :good

 

Seriously lacking indeed, far too many questions than answers to be considered ATG. His skills can push him in the HOF though I would still question it based on the level of competition he went for.

 

No, Ottke only had the WBA and the IBF. You know, the two of the three that people hold higher.

I'm going to assume you meant REID, not REED. The same Reid Ottke beat right? :huh

Joe was LINEAR over Ottke? What made Joe Linear BTW?

Sure, he'll be ranked higher then Ottke. No doubt there.

 

Joe career was almost like a tumor , it went uncheck for too long that at this point your ether going to pay a high dollar to take care of it , or let it run it corse .. and I for one wont bother to see it run its course.. Ill read about it the next day.. :good peace

 

he beat kessler and lacy who were consider the best 168 at the time
and he held the WBC WBO and IBF thats three major belts
the WBC is held in higher regards the the WBA

yes I meant Reid ..

 

Scar, you’re usually top-notch as a poster so I’m having trouble grasping your FACTUAL errors in this post.

Lets take your list:

Hopkins

Calzaghe was Pressing Hopkins for a matchup in 2002.

It was Hopkins who ducked out.

Here’s what the vice-president of Showtime said about it:


"A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30trh, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank Warren and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard. We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money would he want if he did. The response we got was $3million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said 'Okay, done.' Frank Warren agreed on the spot, DOn King agreed and we agreed so as far as we were concerned all parties were singing off the one hymm sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard. Either that day or the next day, they came with a new demand: $6million, dobule the sum that had been agreed, the deal blew up.....he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear.

Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought the big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."

- Jay Larkin, then Showtime TV Network's Senior Vice-President of Sports and Event Programming.


So Joe didn’t duck Bernard.

Bernard pulled the plug on Joe.

(IMO, not because he was scared of Joe. He was just too greedy).



Toney

There was never a time for that fight to happen.

Toney fought at 168 for the last time in November 1994.

He’s been moving steadily upward since then, with no indications of coming back down. ( Last I looked, he was 237).

In November 1994, Joe had been a pro for a year and had seven pro fights. He was three years away from his first title against Eubank in 1997 (by which Time Toney was at cruiser).


So when was he supposed to fight Toney ?



Tarver

Another fight that would be in search of a timeframe.

Tarver began pro boxing in 1997. Nobody much heard of him until he shocked the world with his KO of Roy in mid 2004, a weight class above where Joe was fighting.

He followed that up with a loss of his title to Glen Johnson, and some time later he regained the title from Johnson. Then came a tie-breaker with Roy and then he went down to defeat against Hopkins.

So when did Joe duck Tarver ?

(When did either one express any interest in moving weights to fight the other ?)



Johnson

We come to the ONLY guy on your list that Joe COULD have fought, but didn’t.

This fight was supposed to happen but Joe and Glenn could not reach agreement on what weight to fight at. (Neither one’s fault).


IMO, Joe would have beaten all of those guys, prime for prime.


Not on your list, was prime Roy.

In Roy’s own words, too much risk for too little reward.
Neither one was willing to travel to the other’s turf.
(Later, at light heavy, that same excuse prevented Roy and Darius M. from meeting)


IMO, prime Roy would have beaten ANY version of Joe.


So Joe is not the ‘ducker’ he’s made out by some.



Which brings us to today. Should he fight Kelly or Roy ?

On another thread, 25 voted to have him fight Roy versus 21 to have him fight Kelly, so there is more public demand (even among boxing fans , for a Roy fight. As I mentioned in an earlier post, whichever one he fights, the fans of the other will cry the ‘D’ word.

Joe is getting no younger. At 35, he took on a bigger proven risk in Kessler. He took on Lacy when everyone and his dog, from expert to novice, predicted a brutal KO for Jeff.

He’ll be close to 37 when he fights next, and I believe he has earned the right to fight whomever he chooses.

Kelly has Abraham and Mikkel ahead of him. How Kessler performs from here on will determine some of Joe’s legacy.

 

Didn't exactly mean he DUCKED those guys, just that he had the chance to fight them but didn't work hard enough to do it. Sometimes when there is a big fight close you ought to move up instead of fighting endless cans for pennies, if he wanted a fight he would work hard for it and FORCE it to happen, fact is Joe didn't want any and just sat down expecting those fighters to come to him. I know there were discussions about those fights but it still doesn't mean that he can't fight them at all, he can still do it if he WANTED it.

About Roy claiming "too much risk for too little reward", did you ask yourself who is there to be blamed?, Roy didn't have problem moving from one division to another/dominating and raising his stock so to speak. What was Joe Calzaghe doing exactly?, we see guys like Kessler move up to his division and get close to unify with Joe still fighting cans as he always did. Fact is you can say all what you want about those fights happening, I never in my life heard of Joe trying as hard as Margarito for instance when he called out Floyd, Joe just sat there waiting for them to call him and when they did he had his list of excuses ready with an injury to boot.

I'm pretty sure you'll also agree that only 3 names are worth mentioning on this guy's record; Hopkins, Kessler and Lacy. Did you even think for a minute that if both Lacy and Kessler didn't fly for him even those fights wouldn't have happened?, I know you'll say he's THE CHAMP but no he wasn't, Jeff Lacy was rated higher than him and Lacy only had 21 professional fights, what does that tell you?. Also if Hopkins wasn't 43 years old even THAT wouldn't have happened.

Your reply was very good as usual, respectful and mature, made perfect sense. My only problem here is that I just can't give this guy a pass, he spent his CAREER fighting bums and when I see people backing that up and calling guys like Roy or even Floyd "duckers" then it's pretty obvious there's something wrong here. ATG?, not even close and no way in HELL. HOF?, maybe, based on his skills. He had the chance to make A LOT of fights and the guys I mentioned are only the big names, not to count the MANY others he could've called out if he seriously wanted it.

 

This has nothing to do with what I said, but I would answer "yes".

 

The biggest reason he is fighting Jones is for the money. Pavlik has failed to break the 1.1 million viewer mark and brings very little to the table financially, whereas Roy can give him one last good payday before retirement, it is all economics.

 

scar, will you quit bringing up toney's name in these debates or do you ignore the painfully damning evidence presented to you time and time again during these threads?