Why is Carlos Monzon ranked higher than Marvin Hagler?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bronze Tiger, Jun 29, 2020.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Was he ranked by the Ring?
     
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In their praise of Monzon and his opponents, people on this thread are surprisingly dismissive of Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter, too.

    Who were the best guys Monzon beat? Valdes? Griffith? Briscoe?

    Antuofermo beat Briscoe. Antuofermo beat Griffith. Antuofermo beat Denny Moyer. And Antuofermo beat Hugo Corro (who handled Rodrigo Valdes TWICE with little problems).

    Minter beat Griffith. Minter stopped Tonna. Minter stopped Licata. Minter beat Antuofermo twice.

    Antuofermo and Minter were arguably better than ANYONE Monzon ever defended the title against when Monzon faced them (Griffith's and Moyer's primes were in the 1960s.) They certainly aren't terribly worse. They certainly weren't a DECADE past their primes.

    And they aren't even the best guys, in terms of all-time greats, Hagler fought.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  3. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Active Member Full Member

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    I've always seen Marvin as being superior but I don't mind if someone thinks otherwise
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    How near prime were they when Antuofermo beat them?How old was Griffith when Minter beat him?Valdes would dismantle both Antuofermo and Minter .
     
  5. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Griffith's prime was in the 1960s. Moyer's prime was in the 1960s. When did Monzon fight them?

    And Valdes certainly didn't dismantle Hugo Corro either time.

    I'm not here to "drag" Monzon. He was a fine champion. But be realistic. You could replace any of Monzon's title defenses with a win over a Vito Antuofermo or Alan Minter, and it would IMPROVE Monzon's legacy. Not take away from it.

    Because they were as good, if not better, then basically everyone Monzon defended against.

    And they weren't even the best guys Hagler fought.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  6. quintonjacksonfan

    quintonjacksonfan Active Member Full Member

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    You can make a case that Hagler went 65-1-1. He only lossed clearly to Monroe. He got robbed against Watts and Antofurmo 1 and the Leonard fight could of gone either way. I think Hagler was the better fighter
     
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thanks.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I saw Minter outbox Antuofermo and I saw about ten of Minter's other fights,including the Hagler one. Monzon fought a prime Briscoe,Hagler a 35 years old one.Monzon fought Griffith when he was the number 1 challenger, how old was Emille when Minter beat him?39!
    Briscoe was 35 when Antuofermo beat him, and Griffith was 36!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  9. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Everyone beat Briscoe. The fact that Bennie Briscoe is one of Monzon's best wins isn't a positive, when nearly 30 other guys could say the same thing.

    And the question isn't who beat Emile Griffith at his best, because NONE of them fought Emile Griffith at his best. Griffith's prime was nearly a decade before any of them fought him.

    My point is people in this thread are pretty dismissive of two World Middleweight Champions (Antuofermo and Minter) when they are as good OR BETTER than anyone Monzon defended his title against when Carlos fought them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  10. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    One fool disparages Briscoe because he was not tall.
    Bennie Briscoe was 5' 8"! Wow, he was obviously useless then


    Q .How tall is the current middleweight champ Canelo Alvarez?


    A. 5'8"

    How tall was
    Mickey Walker
    Harry Greb
    Tony Zale
    **** Tiger
    Rocky Graziano
    Billy Papke
    Jack Dempsey The Non Pareil
    Ceferino Garcia
    Vito Antuofermo
    Klaus
    Chip
    McCoy
    Cerdan
    Fullmer
    Basilio
    Cotto
    Lamotta

    How tall does a boxer have to be to be a class middleweight?
    Tom Bogs whom Monzon beat,went on to be Euro Lhvy champ beating Rondon and M Quarry
    Tony Mundine whom Monzon beat ,went on to win the middle,
    lhvy, cruiser ,and heavyweight championships of his country ,Australia.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Funny Hagler had his hands full with a 35 years old Briscoe? I've been dismissive of neither of those names but you decided to respond to my post, so I tried to reply to you. I believe I'm up to speed on Minter thanks.
     
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  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And I believe you could replace ANY successful defense on Monzon's record with a win over Alan Minter or Vito Antuofermo and it would probably improve his legacy.

    Because those two are as good (if not better) as anyone Monzon beat.
     
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  13. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not at the either of the points in time that Briscoe faced Monzon, they couldn't.


    It seems to me that you're basing your assessments of Minter and Antuofermo on them having beating even older versions of Monzon's opposition. If so (and I might be misinterpreting your line of argument, here), it's not a strong position to take.

    Although, I would agree with you that both Minter and Antuofermo are often underrated.
     
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  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    "Dubblechin L In their praise of Monzon and his opponents, people on this thread are surprisingly dismissive of Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter, too.

    Who were the best guys Monzon beat? Valdes? Griffith? Briscoe?

    Antuofermo beat Briscoe. Antuofermo beat Griffith. Antuofermo beat Denny Moyer. And Antuofermo beat Hugo Corro (who handled Rodrigo Valdes TWICE with little problems).

    Minter beat Griffith. Minter stopped Tonna. Minter stopped Licata. Minter beat Antuofermo twice.

    Antuofermo and Minter were arguably better than ANYONE Monzon ever defended the title against when Monzon faced them (Griffith's and Moyer's primes were in the 1960s.) They certainly aren't terribly worse. They certainly weren't a DECADE past their primes.

    And they aren't even the best guys, in terms of all-time greats, Hagler fought.[/QUOTE]

    Mendoza: Hammer meet nail.
     
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  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Mcvey:

    Monzon feasted on small middles?
    Monzon 159 Valdes 158 2nd fight
    Monzon159 Valdes 160 1st fight
    Monzon159 Tonna 159
    Monzon 159 Licata 160
    Monzon160 Bouttier159 2nd fight
    Monzon159 Griffith157 2nd fight
    Monzon158 Briscoe157 2nd fight
    Monzon159 Bogs 160
    Monzon159 Bouttier 159 1st fight
    Monzon159 Griffith155 Ist fight
    Monzon 159 Benvenuti 160 2nd fight
    Monzon160 Benvenuti 160 1st fight
    Monzon160 Denny Moyer 160
    Monzon 160 Napoles 153

    Anyone want to compare those stats with Hagler's defences?


    Mendoza: Why don't you list the age, and height of these middles, highlighting the ones who moved up in class, and then be honest and tell us if their career was in decline when they fought Monzon.

    I'm giving you a chance for objective honesty. Let's see if his request is ignored.

    I agree Hagler fought his share lower weight boxers moving up to middleweight, however they were pound for pound legends like Hearns, Duran and Leonard, which are a class above ANYONE Monzon fought.


    Mendoza : Well Bronze Tiger, our resident broken clock isn't going to answer this. Let's just say Monzon beat a lot of smaller guys moving up to face him, and some older guys. Benenvuti himself was on the slide by the time Monzon took his title. Ad we know bigger middles hit the scale at 160, maybe 159 then hydrate up 10+ pounds. Monzon's guys for the most part fought much closer to their scale weight.
     
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