Why is Dempsey vs Firpo highly edited film?

My motive isn't to discredit. My motive is to be fair. Weird that you should claim the ability to know motives.

 

I don't think a human being has ability to bounce back into the ring in four seconds after flying through the ropes backwards, cracking his head against a typewriter and permanently injuring his hip. Furthermore, I read many years ago that he admitted to asking for help to get back in. The Internet obviously refuses to make that source available.

 

Dempsey landed just outside the ring. He did not fall to the floor but instead on top of typewriters which sat upon tables directly around the ring. So a relatively easy for a conscious trained athlete to grab the ropes and pull themselves directly back into the ring. Should not take more than a few seconds.

 

What is the issue here? It's 100% plain as day nothing was cut between Dempsey leaving the ring and getting back onto his feet. Watching the steps of Firpo in slow mo proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. As the camera pans away you can see Dempsey's feet moving back toward the ring as he is pushed back toward it. As it cuts out of shot it's highly likely his upper body was pushed around and onto the ring. He then gets back in. No idea what the ref picked the count up at but between going out of the ring to where he'd be flat on the canvas if there was one and being on his feet is about 6 seconds.

 

The problem I have with that is that I read where Dempsey himself admitted that he had requested and received help to get back into the ring. I also find it exceedingly suspicious that absolutely no interview of Dempsey commenting on the fight is made available on youtube. I am more than sure that it contains his admission that he requested help and received help.

This article in Spanish describes Dempsey as out of the ring for 17 seconds and that a full twelve seconds were cut from the film . It idenbtifies those who helped Dempsy back into the ring were “ fight judge Kid” McPartland, newspaper men Jack Lawrence, Frank Menke, and Walter Winchell; telegrapgh operator Perry Grogan and timekeeper Hipe Igoe.

It goes on to say that Dempsey hit Firpo while Firpo’s gloves were on the canvass with the ref’s permission. It says the ref Johnny Gallagher was later suspended for six months due to the unfair manner he refereed that fight.



Furthermore it states that when Dempsey visited Buenos Aires on October 2 1954 he said that he still could not understand why Firpo had not been declared the winner of that fight after Firpo had knocked him out of the ring.

http://www.contrainfo.com/20179/luis-angel-firpo-el-toro-salvaje-de-las-pampas-la-leyenda/
It also states that the crowd was booing the injustice done to Firpo as Dempsey was helped back to his corner to be revived via smelling salts.

 

One can find articles that boister ANY argument for most ANY historical event. The non cherry picker would take the vast array of first hand accounts in order to come to a conclusion. So my suggestion to you is not to cherry pick.

 

The announcer himself who was there tells us that Dempsey was helped back into the ring.

This content is protected

Cherry picking?

 

This is the best post anyone has made.

"the steps of Firpo in slow mo"

Yes, you can see him step back with his right foot and then his left--at that point in one frame the image expands, I think so that we can see Firpo who otherwise would have been out of the shot. In the expanded shot his right foot is still forward and his left back, the exact position he was in during the close-up. This is an awkward position. No way he held like that for seconds, as an edit would require. Try stopping when backing up and standing like that. If you are backing up, you do not stop with one foot forward and one back. Firpo took two more steps before moving back forward to meet Dempsey. Note also that Firpo's position in the ring is exactly where he should be after the two steps visible in the blowed-up image.

No the film wasn't edited at this point and Dempsey got back in the ring in about five seconds.

There is also "the dog that didn't bark" question. There was controversy after the fight about Dempsey hitting on the break and not going to a neutral corner. Also about Firpo possibly being down for more than a ten count on his fourth knockdown. What isn't mentioned, at least in the Times, is anything about how long it took Dempsey to get back into the ring. I think that is because he obviously got back into the ring rather quickly.

The "Dempsey was out of the ring more than ten seconds" charge was raised by Lavelle months later in Argentina. It strikes me as just an excuse.

**Just an aside. As a rematch would have been lucrative, and would have served to derail Wills, why was it in Rickard's interest to edit down the time Dempsey was out of the ring? I think his interest would have been the other way. If there was doubt that Dempsey managed to get back legitimately, it would have been the perfect foundation for a rematch.

 

"The announcer himself who was there tells us that Dempsey was helped back into the ring."

Man, this is weird. This film was silent. The announcer's description was looped over the film years later. There is no reason to think he was present at ringside. All that cheering is fake also.

There are a whole bunch of stories about on whom Dempsey landed, so I don't think we can be certain of the facts here, except it seems to be a consensus that the writers (or judge) pushed Dempsey off and back onto the apron. He clearly gets back into the ring quickly.

I agree with the earlier post that questions if this is aid or just a natural reaction if someone falls on you. It would be a pretty picky excuse for DQ'ing someone in my judgment.

A much better field for controversy imho is Dempsey's in the ring tactics like not going to a neutral corner or hitting a rising fighter.

 

He didn't crack his head, he tore his a*se open.

 

The wording is the referee may refuse to count if the scorer of the knockdown does not go to a neutral corner,it was amended after this fight to the referee MUST refuse to count.

This round-by-round account of the 237-second-long bout comes from the June 1945 issue of The Ring magazine:

This content is protected

This content is protected

Firpo sends Dempsey through the ropes
ROUND ONE – Dempsey whirled and glided across the ring like a panther. Firpo was scarcely out of his corner when Dempsey was on top of him. Jack lunged out with a left, but it was short.

Firpo lashed out with a right and it landed on Jack’s face. Firpo’s big boulderlike fist and hairy forearm landed clublike on Dempsey’s left temple. The champion was partially stunned, but he blocked the next blow, a right swing that caught him on the forearm.

Firpo quickly whipped over a right to the body and Dempsey’s knees sagged. It appeared he was ready to sink to the floor, but he saved himself by grasping Firpo’s body and pulling himself to his feet. Dempsey’s knees touched the canvas.

Dempsey arose and swung quickly into action. He hooked his left to Firpo’s jaw. Down went Firpo. Luis disdained a count. He clambered to his feet, eyes blazing and rushed pell-mell into the champion. The Wild Bull crashed his right solidly to the body. Dempsey couldn’t avoid it. Firpo shot his clublike right to the jaw and staggered the titleholder. Dempsey stepped in with a left uppercut that stunned Firpo and the Argentinian sank slowly to his knees.

Dempsey stood over him but Luis managed to get up, only to receive a cruel left followed by a terrific right to the body. Firpo was gone. He winced but didn’t go down. He swung his ponderous right to Dempsey’s ribs three times. Dempsey side-stepped a fourth attempt and let loose a swinging left that crashed to Firpo’s jaw. Once again Firpo went down.

Dempsey stood directly over him in violation of the rules while Referee Gallagher began the count. Firpo attempted to rise and Dempsey lunged a right at him, the blow grazing Firpo’s head just as he was getting off the canvas. The referee overlooked this unintentional violation of the rules. Firpo sank back again. The referee warned Dempsey to beat a retreat and as he did so, the Argentinian arose.

Dempsey was at him in a jiffy. He landed a left and right to the jaw, dropping Firpo in Jack’s own corner. Again Firpo ignored a count. Eyes blazing and sullen features enraged, Luis rushed at Dempsey, swinging lefts and rights. He rushed Dempsey across the ring. A right swing that came up almost from the floor, caught Dempsey and sent him hurtling through the ropes.

Several newspaper men threw up their hands and checked Dempsey’s fall. They pushed him back into the ring, while the referee and the knockdown timekeeper were counting. The count of nine had just been reached when the champion got back into a fighting pose. Firpo was atop of him with a rush, flailing away with both hands. He shot out a left and then followed with a lusty right that caught Dempsey on the chin.

This content is protected

This content is protected

Dempsey starts to get back into the ring
Dempsey suddenly rallied. He leaped at his foe and crashed a right solidly to the heart. Firpo winced under the force of the impact. He exchanged blows with the champion and then worked Dempsey into Firpo’s corner just as the bell sounded.



ROUND TWO - Dempsey rushed out of his corner. The champion, highly excited, glided in close on the waiting Firpo and raked him with short-arm lefts and rights. Dempsey glided pantherlike after his prey but was met with a crashing right to the body and jumped into a clinch.

On the break, Dempsey stepped quickly back and landed two damaging left hooks. Dempsey dug his left into the body, then shot two right uppercuts and followed with a left to the body as Firpo jumped into a clinch. Dempsey shook him off and drove in short-arm blows. Firpo sank to the canvas.


The count reached five when Firpo arose. Luis lashed out a long right to the neck. Dempsey got inside along left lead with short-arm jolts. In close, Dempsey drove his left mauler deep into Firpo’s midsection. On backing away, he crashed a short-arm right to the jaw.

Firpo went down like a poled steer. He lay motionless for two seconds then started to writhe and twist convulsively. He rolled over on his back. He drew up one knee in agony. The count reached five when Dempsey, instead of standing over his fallen foe, went to a neutral corner. Firpo was motionless as the count reached ten and Dempsey had successfully defended his title.
Firpo was down nine times in the fight
Jack Dempsey after the fight:

"He is game and the hardest puncher I ever faced. It was the first time I was knocked down since I became champion and I'll never forget it. I saw eight million stars when I got that punch on the chin that knocked me out of the ring. ... I didn't even know he had knocked me out of the ring until I came to on my stool between rounds. I thought I had been knocked out."

 

Back to reality

This writer could just be wrong. He had to write up his report quickly w/o benefit of film review.

The reason I buy the other writer who said five seconds is that the film backs him up, and the film appears to me for reasons I gave in another post (10:27 AM) to be unedited at that point.

 

I really dont understand all of this argument:

Dempsey was back in the ring by the count of three. Most people here think I have an axe to grind against Dempsey (I dont) so why would I be trying to make him look better. My film has this sequence unedited and hes back in very quickly. Period. Below are stills from this rare version and you can see there are no edits where the film goes to close up as in the theatrical version. You can match this action with any version you want and see that mine is complete and shows no long delay in Dempsey getting back in the ring. In fact, when he falls out of the ring his feet remain inside the ring until he climbs back in.

https://flic.kr/p/YhGpxZ
https://flic.kr/p/YhGpwg
https://flic.kr/p/YhGpvK
https://flic.kr/p/YhGptR
https://flic.kr/p/YhGpsZ
https://flic.kr/p/XgjCVF
https://flic.kr/p/XgjCUi
https://flic.kr/p/XgjCTB

Why should he have been disqualified?? He cant help if a bunch of guys ringside shoved his big ass out of their face and it helped him get back into the ring. Thats besides the point that you couldnt prove if he was assisted or not anyway as that section isnt in the film.

That section of film, shot by the high speed camera for slow motion footage, may or may not have been destroyed by Rickard to help Dempsey's cause. We know Rickard admitted to having that section clipped and gave for his reasoning that someone obscured the view when they got excited and stood up.
https://flic.kr/p/YhG4e2
This excuse is nonsense if you know how those old cameras were set up. The other two cameras filming were not framed to catch anything beyond the ring ropes. Nothing nefarious there.

Dempsey was down three times. Period. It doesnt hurt him in any way because he won the fight and two of the knockdowns were flash knockdowns in which he got up to take the fight to Firpo. BUT, if you go down on a knee and have to grapple your opponents knees to hold yourself its a knockdown. If you touch your gloves to the canvas its a knockdown. Period. Those two knockdowns, combined with going through the ropes make three.

The punch that sent Dempsey through the ropes does indeed look like a half push but this takes credit away from several powerful right hands that Firpo landed in the moments before that which got Dempsey in trouble and sent him to the ropes to begin with.