Why is Frazier an ATG?

Strewth ! Joe Frazier's victory over Muhammad Ali is empirical evidence of his greatness.At worst it is the second greatest victory in heavyweight history.
Like so many other great heavyweight-champions Joe could only beat his contemporary rivals,no matter how good/bad/indifferent they were.
If you want further proof of Smokin'Joe's greatness he soundly defeated the peak
Jerry Quarry in the Ring's Fight of the Year.Quarry is often regarded as the finest
heavyweight never to win the World title.
No-one should ever doubt the ATG status of Joe Frazier.

 

Good points. That's how I see him

and dont fall for the hype

Joe is really just an infighter which you can see from his build. Great against boxers who cant really bang and mid size heavyweights from yesteryear like Jerry Quarry and champs before him

But not as successful against the more versatile heavies since

If you ask me, he was lucky he didnt meet up with Jimmy Young or Larry Holmes. Thank goodness he didn't come along during Mike Tyson's reign

 

I rank Frazier #12 all time at HW, which is lower than most, so if you told me this morning that I'd be debating Frazier's all time standing, I'd have expected it would be to justify my relatively low ranking of him. However, even I think you're underrating Frazier's record here.

Firstly, he only ever lost to 2 x fighters. 1 is generally considered the HW GOAT & the other is an ATG who was a stylistic nightmare for him. Marciano aside, every ATG HW lost to lesser fighters than that.

Secondly, even without Ali, his best wins are broady comparable (from an historical standing/ranking perspective) with those of Wlad & Dempsey, both of whom are generally considered ATG HWs, or at worst, boderline ATG HWs.

Eillis x 2, Bonavena x 2, Quarry, Bugner & Machen, are broadly comparable from an historical perspective, with Wlad & Jack's best 7 wins. Then you have Joe's win over Ali.....

Now, I rank Joe below Wlad (though above Dempsey), because of Wlad's utter & consistent dominance for c.10-years from 2005 & because whilst he doesn't have a win close to Ali, I believe he has better depth. e.g. Wlad's 8th best win is probably better than Joe's 8th, his 12th best win is better than Joe's 12th, etc. But, I can completely see how (most?) others rank Frazier above Wlad, because Wlad lost to lesser fighters than Ali & Foreman, doesn't have a win even approaching the quality of Joe's over Ali, or even 1-single win notably better than say Fraizer's 4th or 5th best.

 

I rank Joe within the Top 10 ATG heavies. I'd make him a 50/50 shot with Holmes - one of those match ups I find hard to make my mind up about. I disagree with you about Young. Much as I always respected Jimmy I can't see him beating Joe in a prime for prime scenario. Tyson would have been all wrong for Frazier.

 

How is he not an ATG?

Ali (you don't get a more iconic win than that.)
2xEllis
2xQuarry
2xBonavena
Bugner
Mathis
Chuvalo
Machen etc.

Only ever lost to fellow ATGs. Sunshine Showdown, Thrilla in Manilla, and FotC are universally mentioned as the most iconic heavyweight bouts of all time, with the latter two oft being ranked in top 5.

 

Very harsh to dismiss Joe Frazier's chances against modern heavies because of Joe's defeat to Foreman.Big George was possibly the physically strongest heavyweight in history
and also one of the most heavyfisted.Bear in mind also that it was a post-prime Joe Frazier
that fought George Foreman.
Now I rate Larry Holmes very,very highly.I wouldn't argue with anybody who rated the Easton Assassin the second greatest heavyweight champion in history,second only to Muhammad
Ali.
However H2H Joe Frazier would be Holmes's worst nightmare.Smokin'Joe is the one heavyweight ATG who,apart from Ali,I would confidently predict to defeat Holmes.
I also have huge respect for Jimmy Young ( R I P ) who is so badly underrated.
Nevertheless Young,like Holmes,would eventually be ground down by Frazier's
brutal non-stop pressure and suffer a late-rounds stoppage.

 

I like Frazier to grind down Holmes over 15 rounds and take a close decision in a fight that would age Frazier. Larry never saw that kind of pressure. Jimmy Young would be like a guy fighting off an avalanche , he'd have some good looking moments with his defense and counters but he can't discourage Joe. I agree that Tyson is all wrong for Frazier and probably stops him inside 3. But,,,if Joe makes it out of round 5 he can use that big heart and wear Mike out for a stoppage but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Frazier won the biggest fight in HW history, that alone gets him there. I dont buy that Joe was past his best when he lost to Foreman, more like Foreman was too strong for him, bad style match up. Frazier would give Holmes hell and he did hurt him in sparring. Joe wouldnt beat Tyson again a bad style match up.

 

Joe was definitely past his best when he lost to Foreman. People were noticing Frazier slipping prior to the matchup.
That being said no version of Frazier beats Foreman.

Foreman at his best is even money or better against every heavy who ever lived not named Ali imho.

 

Because the expectation for HW is low

 

Taking Ali's 0 counts for a lot. Man he was incredible in that fight.

 

These questions invariably start with "aside from" and "apart from".

I think the answer is right there.

But the rest of his resume is quite good as others are conveying.

 

Literally cleared out the era when Ali was exiled and then beat the great man afterwards. Almost a second and third time as well

I think it’s the view of Frazier’s title reign (even though Ali was one of his defences) that lets him down. Assuming most see him as champion in name before the FOTC that is

 

1. Cleaned out the division during an era with a lot of good fighters.
2. First to beat Ali.
3. Ali quit on his stool in Manila, couldn't go. Dundee just waited to see what Futch would do. Would have been 2 of 3.
4. Exciting to watch.

All time great.