Why is Frazier an ATG?

I think you forgot the three other members of the International Boxing Hall Of Fame he defeated. And hotly contested decisions =/= tainted?

 

How many common opponents did Frazier and Young have besides Ali and Foreman?

 

The ones Frazier lost to; Ali & Foreman

Jimmy beat them both

Jimmy also whipped Lyle and held Shavers to a standstill. this tells me that one handed Joe would NOT overwhelm Jimmy as many have said

I dont even understand how anyone can say that considering Jimmy has beat bigger, harder hitting two fisted punchers than Joe

Why are they in denial?

 

Is it your argument that Jimmy Young has a better resume and should be rated higher than Joe Frazier?

 

If we're comparing common opponents Frazier beat Ali and Young didn't. Even if you want to argue that Young won the decision over Ali, the version of Ali that Young fought was much worse than the Ali Frazier defeated. That cannot even be disputed.

Frazier flat out has a better resume even if we ignore Frazier's gold medal and the Ali win.

Ellis 2x
Quarry 2x
Mathis
Bonavena 2x
Bugner
Chuvalo

Are better wins than

Foreman
Lyle 2x
Garcia
Roman

It gets worse if you factor in losses.

Frazier only lost to Ali and Foreman who are both hall of famers.

Young lost to all kinds of people: Shavers, Occasio, Dokes, Norton, etc. Some opponents who beat Young would have 0% chance of beating Frazier. You're smoking beer and drinking crack if you think Jimmy Young had the better resume.

 

Sorry Lads, I don't know how I missed your posts.

Yeah, I lumped George in with a list of other fighters that Jimmy did hurt/stun, I could've isolated him a bit better - but I did note that fatigue contributed to Foreman's being hurt or stunned (more momentarily stunned really).

I wasn't specifically just focusing in on the KD in round 12 either - I saw Jimmy throw shots that did, even if momentarily, stop George in his tracks, and in later rounds, when George was gassing, left him stumbling a bit. Also, there were a lot of head snapping shots landed - implying decent force, and Jimmy certainly drilled and jolted Foreman in round 7, even after Jimmy himself was absolutely rocked earlier in the round.

At the very least, it was likely one of Young's better punching displays - and as I said, compared to his deemed status as a powder puff puncher otherwise, that performance, along with Young's ability to hurt the likes of Lyle, Ali and Norton might've been a bit surprising to some.

As to the 12th round KD, I saw it as legit, no slip, a punch, atop the preceding blows, saw George go down, albeit a flash without Foreman being seriously hurt. Moments earlier, after Young had connected with solid, flush shots, within a moment, Foreman's legs betrayed him - Cosell screamed that Foreman was "off balance" as if Young's punches had nothing to do with it - imo, they did but their effect combined with Foreman's own fatigue. Before going down, Cosell's co-commentator said, "George is hurt".

Foreman arose immediately and went straight toward Young, and though obviously tired; his legs were sufficient to hold him up when he wasn't getting hit.

 

Still, the version they fought wasn’t their best, and that’s not taking away from their victories. Everybody knows post Zaire Foreman and post Spinks Tyson went on a decline.

Joe was versatile in his opponents too, he may have missed guys like Lyle and Shavers, but he was facing the best of the competition to keep his rank rather than needlessly taking lesser fights. The only notable omission around this time was Norton, and that’s because they were close friends.

And by that logic, Ali, Foreman, and Young all had more losses than Holmes, and Young more losses than Frazier. Frazier’s losses were to only ATGs.

 

Young did not beat Ali.

 

Frazier has a better record than Young and it isnt even arguable.
Young was a nearly man .When the opportunity to step up to the plate was presented to him he often failed to take it.eg Ali,Norton,Dokes. imo he did not have a champions mentality,nor did he have the dedication of a champion often showing up 20/25lbs overweight, that is reflected in his close losses, losses in which more ambition on his part could have changed those losses to wins.Personally I think his effort against Ali was disgraceful.I would have warned him then slung him out if he continued to duck through the ropes.
A fat disinterested Ali, past his best was there for the taking and Young could not bring himself to grasp the nettle.
He gets absolutely no sympathy from me for his close losses.

 

Mark,I don't know how long you've been studying boxing but surely you know that boxing
doesn't work that.
Come on man,the evidence is staring right at you.Joe Frazier defeated Muhammad Ali,George Foreman comprehensively beat Smokin'Joe.
Thus,according to your logic George Foreman would be an overwhelming favourite to beat Ali.
Well,of course we all know what happened there.
Mate,for the umpteenth time,it's all about styles.

 

If you read the thread closely you would see the poster you responded to suggesting the 29 year old Ali who fought Frazier in the FOTC was past his prime while the 34 year old Ali who fought Young was in his prime.

 

Just rewatched the knockdown and it's a very tough call. Cossell noted Foreman was tired before the knockdown and it almost seems to me like Foreman's momentum from throwing that right hand drove him to the ground as Young caught him with a punch.

I don't think Young ever greatly hurt Foreman in the bout though. I've admittedly not watched the full fight in a while, so I'll take your word on the matter but from memory, I remember thinking funnily enough, Frazier despite being destroyed in both their bouts, landed the harder punches than Young imo, including an excellent counter left hook in their first bout that seemed to stun Foreman ever so briefly who responds by pushing him away

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If Foreman had even an average chin, I think Frazier would've had a lot more success but Foreman shook off basically all of Frazier's shots like they were nothing.

 

It's obvious he hasn't studied at all.

 

He does have a better resume. Jimmy beat Ali, Foreman, Lyle, and did better vs Norton than Ali

Frazier only has Ali, Ellis, mid size heavies

 

Frazier didnt hurt George at all

no KDs either

George scored all the KDs with Frazier, in both fights

classic quotes:

"Foreman's momentum threw him to the canvas as Jimmy threw a punch"

"Frazier, despite being destroyed in both bouts, threw harder punches than young"

Die hard fan to the end