Why is it not held against Holmes legacy more that he was never the undisputed HW champion of boxing

Because the other champs were either guys he had already beat or guys who got beat by guys he beat.

 

He had the rights to lineage but being undisputed was questionable.

 

Holmes has one of the least scrutinized and criticised reigns of all the heavyweights for some reason. Post Witherspoon is dabolical as he avoided anyone with a pulse knowing he was probably in decline. I wish i could find the interview but he stated he wasn't going to give the public the satisfaction of seeing him lose, he deserved to take the easy road etc etc. He then avoided all the best contenders and eventually lost when a cherry pick went wrong.

He started well, beating Shavers for a shot, then Norton. An easy first defense was fine, Ocasio was fair as he beat Young. Weaver was considered a journeyman but then he fought Earnie again, which was fair. Three very ordinary defenses followed before fighting Ali. The world was happy to see Ali try again, it wasn't Holmes fault. Berbick was considered a piece of cake, Leon Spinks wasn't much at the 14 fight mark but after getting KO'd by Coetzee in a nick over 2 minutes and drawing Eddie Lopez he beat Bernado Mercado (in an eliminator) who had beat Shavers, but Leon found himself Ring #3 rated and the mandatory. Can't fault that, and Holmes put a whooping on him. Snipes was a rest, then the big one vs Cooney which was the most popular fight to be made and the right one. From there on it was lacklustre as bottom half of the ten and fringe dwellers were taken on one after another. Except Bey, who had lucked out beating the inconsistent but dangerous when on Page for a top 5 ranking before losing to Holmes and then dropping 5 of his next 6.

Lack of top 5 opponents and rematches against tough foes are the biggies. Joe Louis rematched virtually every time he had a tough outing setting the standard. Marciano rematched Charles and Walcott when they gave him epic fights....etc. Norton, Weaver, Witherspoon and Williams all would have been deserving rematches but we got zero, not even one. It was a case of you give me a hard night you ain't getting another chance.

Webs are spun by fans trying to make sense of more difficult opponents being avoided. He beat him who had beat him so he didn't fight him. That's cellar level. Foreman destroyed Frazier who beat Ali then hadlife and death struggles with him....yet Ali bested George. George lost to Young who was bested by Norton narrowly etc etc. Sure, fights were harder to make with the WBC and WBA but while all the top contenders fought each other for the WBA title Larry missed them all. Page, Dokes, Thomas etc. Top 5 stalwarts.

On the plus side Holmes was extremely consistent, really knowing how to win when in trouble. It would have been great if he tested himself a bit and fought just a few other guys. There's a big chance he loses earlier taking on more dangerous and higher rated fighters. One could never remotely state he cleaned out the division, because he was a long way from it.

He's a great fighter tho, no doubt. One of the best heavyweights to lace them. He brings a lot of plusses and not many minusses into the ring.

MaccM did a brilliant thread which highlights who fought who according to Ring ratings and really gives us insight resume wise into the great heavyweights.

Marciano cops endless flak yet fight 4 x #1 and 1 x #2 ring rated contenders. Holmes never once fought the top heavyweight or top heavyweight besides himself. He defended once ever against the #2 in Cooney and won the title off the #2 in Norton.

He had 6 wins over top #5 guys in his career including Norton and Mercer. So did Foreman. Marciano had 10. Holyfield had 9 at heavyweight. Lewis had 8. Tyson had 7, as did Wlad and Frazier. Louis had 22. Ali had 22 if i added right. This is why Ali and Louis are head and shoudlers above ever other heavyweight ever, Greatness wise.

It's a fascinating study that really opens your eyes up.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/my-all-time-top-15-hws-wins-against-the-rings-top-10.749182/

3. Larry Holmes

Earnie Shavers (contender number 6)
Ken Norton (contender number 2)
Alfredo Evangelista (contender number 6)
Ossie Ocasio (contender number 5)
Mike Weaver (contender number 8)
Earnie Shavers (number 3)
Lorenzo Zanon (number 7)
Leroy Jones (number 6)
Scott LeDoux (contender number 10)
Muhammad Ali (returning lineal champion)
Trevor Berbick (contender number 7)
Leon Spinks (contender number 3)
Renaldo Snipes (contender number 10)
Gerry Cooney (contender number 2)
Tex Cobb (contender number 9)
Tim Witherspoon (contender number 10)
Marvis Frazier (contender number 10)
Bonecrusher Smith (contender number 9)
David Bey (contender number 3)
Ray Mercer (number 5)

2. Joe Louis

Lee Ramage (contender number 10)
Patsy Perroni (contender number 6)
Natie Brown (contender number 10)
Primo Carnera (contender number 4)
King Levinsky (contender number 10)
Max Baer (contender number 1)
Charley Retzlaff (contender number 4)
Jack Sharkey (contender number 4)
Al Ettore (contender number 3)
Bob Pastor (contender number 5)
James J. Braddock (champion)
Tommy Farr (contender number 3)
Nathan Mann (contender number 3)
Max Schmeling II (best available opponent)
Tony Galento (contender number 3)
Bob Pastor II (contender number 2)
Johnny Paychek (contender number 6)
Arturo Godoy II (best available opponent)
Red Burman (contender number 3)
Buddy Bear (contender number 5)
Billy Conn (contender number 2)
Lou Nova (best available opponent)
Buddy Baer II (contender number 7)
Abe Simon II (contender number 6)
Billy Conn II (best available opponent)
Tami Mauriello (best available opponent)
Jersey Joe Walcott (best available opponent)
Jersey Joe Walcott (best available opponent)
Lee Savold (contender number 4)
Cesar Brion (contender number 8)

1. Muhammad Ali

Alejandro Lavorante (contender number 10)
Archie Moore (contender number 10)
Doug Jones (contender number 3)
Henry Cooper (contender number 9)
Sonny Liston I (champion)
Sonny Liston II (best available opponent)
Floyd Patterson (best available opponent)
George Chuvalo (contender number 9)
Henry Cooper (contender number 4)
Karl Mildenberger (contender number 3)
Cleveland Williams (contender number 4)
Ernie Terrell (best available opponent)
Zora Folley (best available opponent)
Jerry Quarry (contender number 1)
Oscar Bonavena (contender number 1)
Jimmy Ellis (contender number 7)
Mac Foster (contender number 6)
Jerry Quarry (contender number 2)
Floyd Patterson (contender number 3)
Joe Bugner (contender number 8)
Ken Norton II (contender number 2)
Joe Frazier II (contender number 2)
George Foreman (champion)
Chuck Wepner (contender number 8)
Ron Lyle (contender number 8)
Joe Bugner (contender number 4)
Joe Frazier III (contender number 2)
Jimmy Young (contender number 3)
Ken Norton III (best available opponent)
Earnie Shavers (contender number 5)
Leon Spinks II (champion)

 

Because everybody knew who the best in the world was lol.

 

We’ve all discussed this many times.

You have to acknowledge the circumstances.

It’s a fact that he tried to unify with Coatzee.

It’s also a fact that he had a very strained relationship with Don King.

Which is why he dropped the belt to fight for the newly formed IBF.

They were valid reasons.

It wasn’t that he couldn’t be bothered.

The only real criticism he deserves, is for not having fought Pinklon Thomas.

Like the others have said, King had complete control over the WBA belt, where most of them could only make a few defences of it before losing it to someone else.

Now if the Coatzee fight had materialised and he’d have had a better relationship with King, he could have unified the main titles and not been interested in the IBF belt.

We don’t know.

But you are painting a picture of where he was unambitious, which simply wasn’t the case.

He argued with King over the purse for Page, where they’d had a relationship for years.

You simply have to take that into account.

He didn’t duck Page

Look at who he’d fought prior to him.

Who he went onto fight afterwards.

 

Plenty of fighters pre-Tyson didn't unify or even seek unifications w/o it being seen as some sort of detriment to their legacies. Arguello was rated a candidate for P4p #1 alongside Duran w/o ever unifying any titles, & even today nobody disparages him for not having chased down co-titlists that either nobody really cared about &/or he'd already beaten solely for the sake of unifying titles.

The fact that far & away the single most in-demand fight of Holmes' reign didn't involve any co-titles is a testament to the lack of priority given to a potential unification by fans of the era.

yes it does, if an expectation or demand didn't exist in his own era, there's no reason to retroactively apply 1 from a later era. That would be akin to retroactively devaluating any unified champ of the early 90s for not having pursued the WBO titles years before that came to be held in the same regard as the other 3 major titles.

 

And that is a completely different argument than, "unification wasn't important at the time."

Again, every other major champ up to this time managed unification. What I said in my initial post is that he should have tried a little harder. and I stick by it. But again, you are not addressing here what I was addressing.

 

Another top post, my man.

 

Thank you sir.

 

Interesting point about Holmes not getting into rematches after tougher fights. I hadn't really thought that much into that.

 

“I want a lot of money and no more of those big hitters like Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver,” he told Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated. “I’ve paid my dues and if they want me back, they’ve got to give me little people I can beat on without getting hurt.”

 

And ironically, Usyk is castigated FOR giving rematches. I often cite Holmes as being someone who went the opposite directions and it does not look good for him.

 

Its more meant as in Uysk has a limited number of heavyweight fights which is a problem for some.

His rematch wins added to his standing and ate still legit in my book. Can't agree if someone doesn't side with that.

 

JohnThomas1,


Once again, I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you’ve said here.

Again, I think that you’ve been very harsh.

We discussed this last month.

How was his career post Witherspoon, diabolical?

That’s a gross exaggeration.


Post Witherspoon, he fought 5 undefeated fighters.

Now had he not have fought those undefeated fighters and he’d have fought others instead, we’d probably have criticisms that he avoided young, hungry and undefeated fighters, to instead fight guys who’d already lost etc.


You’re also criticising the 2 Spinks fights too?


Who should he have fought instead?

Was it really lacklustre after Cooney?

He fought Witherspoon, before then fighting a number of undefeated fighters including Spinks.

Again, who else should he have fought within that specific timeframe, who was both relevant and viable?

Who were the top 5 opponents?


Rocky rematched former MW’s and LHW’s, who were old and who had a ton of mileage.

He didn’t have young, dangerous guys like Witherspoon to fight.



Let’s have a look at those deserving rematches:



Norton:

After losing to Larry, he was then knocked out the following year by Shavers.

He then retired just shortly afterwards.



Weaver:

Weaver had been stopped in their fight.

He then lost to Dokes and Thomas afterwards.



Witherspoon:

A rematch would have been nice there.

However, the window was short.

They fought in 83.

Witherspoon then lost to Thomas in 84, shortly before Larry lost to Spinks in 85.



Williams:

Larry fought an undefeated Spinks straight after, whereas Williams went and lost to Weaver the following year.



The other issue is this:

You’re criticising him for not having fought a rematch with Williams, yet earlier, you said that post Witherspoon, Larry didn’t fight anyone with a pulse, as his opponents were diabolical.

Now Williams was one of those opponents who you were referring to.

So why the criticism then?

Avoided is a strong word.

Avoided and not fighting, are very different things.


Your examples of Frazier, Ali and Foreman don’t stack up.

Ali having missed Foreman or Frazier in the 70’s, would have been huge, huge omissions.


That is not in any way the same as where Larry missed Greg Page etc.

Also, Larry fell out with King, and then he fought Frazier for more money than what Page would have brought.


Thomas was an omission, but Dokes wasn’t.

Also, if he’d have fought those guys but missed some of the others who he did fight, he’d probably have been criticised for not having fought them.


I really don’t understand the criticisms.

A guy like like Page lost to a number of guys who Larry had beaten, including a guy like Bey, who you claimed was within a group of fighters who were diabolical opponents who didn’t have a pulse.

He consistently tested himself.

Apart from Thomas, the guys he missed weren’t bigger tests than the guys he’d fought.

Also, as you’re already aware of, the guys he missed out on lost to many of the guys who he’d fought and beaten.


Who were these dangerous guys he could/should have faced?

I’d love to know who they were.


How was he a long way from having cleaned out the division?

He fought everyone relevant apart from just a handful of guys.

Again, who were these guys who he should have fought?

 

Great post.