Why is it not held against Holmes legacy more that he was never the undisputed HW champion of boxing

He thinks having excuses for not taking unification fights is just as good as actually taking the fights and winning them, at least if it’s in reference to his favorite fighters.

 

The alphabet titlists were basically analogous to the best possible challenges for Holmes, of course, and he didn’t fight them.

 

A champion not defending against the best contenders is a different argument.

I disagree, up until around the final year of Holmes reign. He'd already beaten Weaver, whilst Dokes, Tate and Coetzee weren't as good or dangerous as Witherspoon (admittedly with the benefit of hindsight) and Cooney. By the time Thomas won a strap around a year before the end of Larry's reign, I agree.

 

More dominant wins also. But as I have said before I think Wlad's losses were worse so I have Holmes higher mainly for that reason.

 

100%. I have Holmes 3rd and Wlad 6th.

 

I never said that, genius.

Every time I give you a chance to debate, you normally end up trolling.


Now valid reasons and excuses, are two completely different things.

The circumstances at the time were quite unique.

I’m sure that you know this.


There was no clamour for him to fight a guy like Tate, who couldn’t even defend his WBA title once. A title once held by Ali and Spinks, who Larry went on to beat.

Tate couldn’t beat Weaver, who Larry had beaten.


There was never any huge clamour for him to fight most of those various WBA guys, with only Coatzee being of real interest. A guy who he tried to fight several times.

He didn’t fight Page, because it was two fingers up to King with a break from him, and more money to fight Frazier. Sort of like Zuffa coming in now.

He should have fought Thomas.

Dokes and Page would have been nice, but they weren’t huge omissions.


So you can say that he missed Page, Tate and Dokes etc.

But the man fought 3-4 per times per year, which was enough for any HW.

Again, had he have fought those guys, unless he’d have fought 5-6 times per year, it would had to have been at the expense of some of the others, where you’d now all be whining about those guys that he missed.

You’d be saying that he fought Thomas and Page, but ducked guys like Witherspoon and Williams etc.

You’d never be satisfied.


Larry fought 5 undefeated fighters in a row.

Yet you’re upset that he didn’t fight a guy like page, who was a fighter who’d lost to many of Larry’s defeated opponents.

It would be like Usyk retiring and then being critical/angry, that he’d not fought Joseph Parker.


At the end of the day, Larry did not avoid lots of credible threats to instead fight lesser fighters.

 

Who are these guys who Larry supposedly ducked.

List them.

I keep asking.

List them, and we’ll look at how good they were, as well as the specific timelines.

 

Men who Holmes did not fight:
Dokes was Ring annual number 4, 3, and 1 for 80--82.
Coetzee was 8 in 78, 3, in 79, 5 in 80 and 81, 1 in 83, and 5/6 in 84/86.
Tate was second only to Holmes in 79
84 and 85 belonged to Pink, number 1 in each year.
Page was 2 in 83 and 84, and 5 in 85

^All were alphabet titlists at some point and preferable to dross like Frank, Rodriguez, LeDoux, a half dead Ali, etc.

 

Holmes didn't really duck any fighter. He would've fought every and anybody if he was paid his worth. With most fighters folks list as someone who Holmes ducked, they all shared the same promoter: Don King. I shouldn't have to remind anybody of what a greedy, vile snake King was. Holmes chose not to take fights, no matter how much he wanted them, simply because he didn't want to accept King's ridiculously lowballed offers for his purse. Unlike many other fighters of the time, he made the choice not to ever shake hands with King, and it clearly paid off for him financially. Holmes wasn't Tyson Fury or Floyd Mayweather jr; he was simply financially responsible.

 

Tyson literally unified everything under King as the next guy up. Holmes was complacent.

 

Tyson sure did clean up that mess, didn't he?

 

He also joined the HBO Unification Series, which never happened before or since.

 

This is fine.

We can discuss this.



First of all, he didn't deliberately duck the above guys, to specifically fight those other guys that you've mentioned in the list below.

That would be a different case altogether.


He fought the guys that you listed, mixed in with better opponents.

Not instead of.



Now let's look at these fighters:



Dokes:

Despite his ranking, he'd barely fought anybody until 82 and 83, where he won and drew with Weaver, before then losing to Coetzee.

Now within that same timeframe, Larry had beaten Gerry Cooney and Tim Witherspoon.

Therefore, Larry deserves zero criticism for not having taken the fight.



Coetzee:

Again, this fight almost happened on 2/3 occasions, but kept falling through due to various issues.

Therefore, Larry deserves zero criticism for the fight not taking place.



Tate:

After winning King's tournament, he lost in his very first defence to Weaver, who Larry had already beaten. After that, he also lost to Berbick, who Larry had also already beaten. And after those 2 defeats, he was out of the mix fighting lower level fighters.

Therefore, again, Larry can't garner any criticism for the fight not having taken place.



Thomas:

I'd have liked this fight out of all of them. Yes, you can criticise him for not having fought Thomas. Although, he did fight 3 undefeated fighters including Spinks instead.



Page:

Page was his mandatory. But as you know, the IBF came in, again, similar to Zuffa today, where they offered him more money to fight Frazier instead, and for a new belt. It was also an opportunity to break from King.

Page was a good fighter. But he'd already lost to Berbick. Then shortly afterwards, he also lost to Bey and Witherspoon consecutively in 84. All of which shows you that the rankings aren't everything.

Now we have to be objective, and decide whether this was a straight out duck, or whether Larry's decision was valid.



Now I'd really like you to come and try and debate this objectively.

Again, Larry did not miss those guys, to specifically fight the guys from your second list.

Within the time periods mentioned, Larry had fought Witherspoon, Cooney and Berbick etc, whilst he'd also tried to fight Coetzee.


The only real criticism can be of him not having fought Pinklon Thomas.

Again, Larry absolutely did not avoid those challenges, to instead pursue lesser fighters.


Apart from Thomas, any real criticisms don't stand up.

It would be like being ultra critical of Wlad for not having fought Evander and Valuev, or if Usyk retires without having fought Parker and Kabayel.


At the end of the day, Larry fought and beat better fighters than almost all of the ones that you have listed, and I've also given you valid and specific reasons as to why most of them didn't occur.

I have listed you verifiable facts that you can check out for yourself.


Now I welcome you or anyone else to come and refute what I've typed above.

 

Completely different circumstances in every way.

If you don't know that, it's not even worth anyone's time debating you.

 

Good things tend to happen when you start your career like Tyson did.