Why is Joe Louis so underrated H2H?

No offense, but this post is a case in point of many of the things that I'm talking about. Talk Max Schmeling up all you want, but there have been many, many more formidable and dangerous heavyweights over the years. Saying that Louis' footwork was "perfectly suited to his style and always in position to land blows" is patently false, or he wouldn't have struggled so much in Walcott I and it wouldn't have taken so long for a puncher with his ability to catch up to and get rid of Billy Conn. Talk about rose-colored glasses! His jab was very good--especially for his time--but it was not the best ever by any measure and he did not use it to regularly dominate fights the way the way the division's absolute best jabbers did. Whether Louis is the "greatest" heavyweight or not, I'd make him an underdog against a number of more recent heavyweights who I believe have the combination of physical tools and skills to beat him.

 

He dominated the Max Baer fight with the jab. Who is Louis an underdog against? Larry Holmes who was nearly stopped by Snipes and Shavers with single right hands? Lewis who was by McCall and Rahman? Klitschko who fought scared against Haye?

I'm not saying Louis was unbeatable, but I haven't seen anyone(including Ali) that I think is nailed on to beat him. On a given night he could beat anybody with his speed, power and accuracy. I could easily see him chinning Vlad or Lewis.

 

The basic logic of your argument is "If Fighter A was ever in his career hurt or stopped by a punch by a less great boxer, then he would lose to Joe Louis." I completely disagree with that approach and it would be easy to invert that line of reasoning to argue that any number of fighters would beat Louis.

 

At their best, Lewis, Holmes and Ali all dominate Louis from outside of his preferred range. Definitely possible that he catches them at some point, but it's even more possible, imo, that he gets outpointed if not stopped. I would pick Tyson to stop him early, for all the reasons that have been discussed in the numerous threads on the topic. Plenty of other, lesser fighters would have surprisingly decent chances against Louis too.

 

Foreman's quote isn't perceptive in describing jazz and its even less apt in describing Joe Louis.

 

Kevin is lost again.

 

Such a stupid and ignorant thread. Beyond belief. Troll level idiocy.

 

There is some truth to the points you cited in the OP.

Louis admitted some time after the Marciano fight that he never liked being pressured. He prefered a more easy-going pace. Godoy gave him fits with a swarming style as well, although he fought a very negative fight and Louis solved the puzzle in the rematch with a nice, crisp uppercut.

Louis' struggles with cuties and slicksters are well documented to be ignored. Pastor had some success, Walcott arguably won the first fight and Conn came close despite being a light-heavyweight.

But I think people are reading a bit too much into all of this. A lot of other fighters had trouble with such styles. An intelligent fighter that avoids exchanges, or a relentless animal blasting away with complete disregard for safety could trouble just about anyone.

 

you are the guy who said... "lyle would not beat frazier because frazier did beat quarry and quarry did beat lyle", and you have the courage to say that i don´t know aboout boxing?. i forgot more about this sport than you will ever know about it

 

Just a suggestion but why don't you go back to the sideline and let more knowledgable Louis fans make logical, fact-based arguments on his behalf?

 

Louis was stopped just twice in a 69 fight career. He was stopped pre peak in the Rings fight of the year over 12 rounds. This was avenged. He was also stopped when over the hill in his last fight by some guy named Marciano. Getting dropped (or hurt) is fine as long as you have the class and guts to go on and win. Larry Holmes was also pretty adept at this. How many fights did Foreman and Tyson win once they hit the deck?

"Super durable movers late in the fight"? Is the 8th round late in a 15 round fight? Did Ali really move that much? Um no. If George gets gassed that easily most ATG's getting him past 6 or 7 rounds are in for a party. Big weakness you are admitting to there.

Ali would 100% ko Louis? The Foreman fight would be tougher than against Joe? I'll have a kilo of whatever you are on. I'm not even completely convinced Foreman hits harder. Shavers hit harder than Foreman at a weight commonly only 8 - 10 pounds more than Joe.

Louis' punches were certainly infinitely more sharper and direct than Georges wild cumbersome swings. He's probably the best puncher ever in any division.

 

It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine that Louis is rated so much worse than Ali H2H. There seems to be a huge group of posters who accept that there is H2H progress in HW division over time. But a huge group of those posters apply those rules to Louis, but not Ali, many still picking Ali to beat every HW but not Louis.

Personally, I rate Louis #1 on the ATG list for legacy (almost interchangeably with Ali). I don't think he'd stand much of a chance against the top guys in the modern division in pure H2H though, with his huge size disadvantage. But, stylistically, his power would give him more of a chance of keeping up with modern SHW's than Ali. Ali was more dependent on having a size advantage than Louis was. Some of Louis's best opponents were substantially larger than him. The only top opponent of Ali's who was much taller than him was Terrell. Power is the great equalizer, Louis had it, Ali did not.

 

Nice! Thanks for the quote!

 

when you read his post do it in Donald Trump's voice.

 

No truely knowledgable boxing fan under rates Joe Louis. Skill level is off the charts.