Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

as to how much I've seen of him, I had seen clips of him in the early 80s and then became impressed by the skills and endless combinations. I thought "if only we had fighters like that today" and then went out and purchased the tape labelled Robinson - pound for pound becuz I wanted to see more of the man they called the greatest fighter ever pound for pound

anyone who calls him a scrapper doesnt know boxing and just embarasses himself and is just as ignorant as they are arrogant

i've owned the tape the last 30 years and it just sits there collectig dust so as you can see all this is very old hat. I've probably forgotten more about boxing than most ESbers here combined have learned

 

you dont like Norris do you?

Norris is even more deserving of discussion than Leonard and why is this? becuz of the way he totally showed him who's boss!

of course, why else! no wonder the name of Norris draws so much hate!!

Norris TOTALLY showed the boxing community all of Ray Leonard's limitations DESPITE Leonard's HUGE edge in experience not to mention the five championship belts and his perfect performance just prior to the Norris rout!

I loved it cuz there's nothing you can say. you just stay quiet and about the oly thing you can say is "do you have to bring up HIS name!"

I just love watching you fanboys squirm!

 

if it isnt the guy that said I've been blocked

and just now gave me a reminder how he ignores me

but in reality is a troll and instigator himself

and this only proves it

well Fleaman or Wayne or whatever you call yourself these days, since there is no block function and no ignore button as you keep lying about, we can discuss the merits of Norris until you turn purple with nausea and how his flawless style N speed saved the day just when the critics wrote him off

why it's the greatest comeback in boxing history!

for WHY should I feel embarassment over the heroics of Norris if he won every round he was expected to lose and your man LOST every round he was supposed to win?

:think

If my man won all the rounds it isnt becuz he's UNworthy, it's becuz he's WORTHY :yep

and if my man took the best shots from your fighter w/o blinking. it's becuz he has a GREAT chin!

and if your man couldnt do the same under similar pressure, it's becuz his chin just wasnt as good as Terry's

nor could he cope with so much copious speed! :smoke

you may not like Terry becuz of all his successes, but you have to give him his due. He was a great fighter. that's why he's in the HOF

have I ever been wrong before?

 

In every catagory I can think of Robinson, the real Sugar Ray, outshined Leonard

Robinson beat the best fighters out of Detroit and New York on a regular basis

Leonard would never be able to pull that off becuz his heart was too weak and wouldnt be able to get enough concessions and would simply go around them

First of all, Leonard didnt even BELIEVE in rematches let alone grant them, a big difference between the two. thus this goes in Robinson' favor

if Leonard granted one how long did it take for him to get around to it, 9, 10 years?

Robinson's 25 year career vs Leonard's ten full years

Robinson's 200 fights vs Leonard's 30 +?

no comparison

Overall, Robinson's oppostion was stiffer and puts Leonard's to shame

compare the victims. For Robinson: Armstrong, Gavilan (2), Fulmer, Angott (3), Servo, Graziano, Lamotta (5), Zivic (2), Bell (2), Basora (2), Hudson, Villemain (2), Olson (4),, Turpin, Basilio

vs Leonard's: Hearns, the only real puncher of his career opposition, lightweight Duran who beat him after jumping two weight classes, passive lamb Benitez, washed up lifeless punching bag Hagler ready for pasture after 6 yrs of waiting who Leonard wouldnt go near in his prime - all carefully planeed

and then there was,,,

.... Lalonde

can u believe it?

please,, two title in one night Lalonde. Donny didnt posses two titles! what a joke! Leonard would never have been champ in Robinson's day. They didnt just HAND OUT title to welfare casses like Leonard needing an extra title



Well, obviously, less CANT be more. please dont ask me to believe that. it's one big slight of hand Leonard's fans have trying to pull on us for years

it simply wont work

who could ever forget Howard flooring Leonard and Leonard making Hagler wait 6 years. That never wouldve came from Rbinson. too proud

when they finally threw a young fighter who didnt impersonate the MUMMY, Ray couldnt give a decent ight

watching washed up Camacho laying him out didnt help either

just be thankful I rank Leonard top 6 in his weight class and forget about him ever being considered #1

 

what are you talking about? He whipped Leonard didnt he?

Ray was winning wasnt he?

Ray was favored wasnt he?

tell me which writers had Norris the winner going ito the fight?

that's right, NO ONE

too bad we cant just rewrite history the way we'd like it!

as for hector well, he was a lot smaller than Ray and was every bit as washed up except that Hector had more INSIDE where it counts

better chin, more brains, and greater will to win

I say this becuz Hector took the play from him right away just like Norris did in his fight with ray

When you get to him early, and hurt him and keep hurting him, he gets intimidated. you hurt him physically, he's a damaged fighter emotionally and that's what happened in both fights against both fighters who by the way, re the only fighters possessed of real speed. Not conicidentally, Ray lost to both becuz he spent too many years chasing fighters who were one dimensional - stiff, immobile and were slow and couldnt hit hard

in contrast, both Norris N Camacho hit fast AND hard and after three rounds vs Norris you could see he didnt want it any more

vs camacho, it took one round longer before he succumbed to his mortal wounds and gave up the ghost

I agree, Floyd, Robinson, & Jones were much better fighters. Norris too

still, Leonard ranks 5 or 6 best welter I've seen. If Duran came in physically fit for the rematch I think Duran edges him a second time

 

no. it's just that you're not familiar with Robinson's opposition while I am familiar with both

I wouldve mentioned opponents lke Ranzany, Green, Shields, Price, Finch but for what? all but one of them had multiple losses to prior opponents or brutal knockout losses

Price- 4 losses in the previous two years. (I'm serious!)
Price, a common punching bag for every up N comer including then prospect Curry

Kalule - punched out by D. moore, a fighter with ten pro fights

Howard, another opponent with habitual losses (20-4) before meeting up with Leonard.

Green - knocked stiff by Palomino 3 years prior to in a title fight (by a left hook of course!)

Ranzay - broken to pieces in two a 1978 title fight with Cuevas, the second best welter since Napoles

cheer up. so what if he cant compete with Robinson? I have him ahead of Curry dont i?

 

well, I'm sorry things didnt work out for you. the name of this thread is Why is leonard raked #2 Welter, not Why isn't Leonard ahead of Robinson

that's just the way it is. Ray Leonard CAN'T be greater than Robinson, in the same way the number 2 can't be greater than ten

Less, is not MORE. Get it?

 

and I'm sorry things didn't work out for you either. Norris with his speed, was way too much for Sugar and the fight concluded that way becuz that's the way things had to be.

Sugar does better when opponents dont have Terry's speed, skills, movement, & defense

check the record

 

that's ancient history and only ONE fight

Not trying to take anything away from Leonard but only in the middle rounds did he impress with his counters to the head, followed up by a viscious body attack

When Tommy got on his bike however, this reduced Ray to a one dimensional plodder throwing haymakers. not really impressive

You want to see how it's done, watch Hagler Hearns

and while Tommy was a very good fighter in his own right, he didnt have the overall speed & balance Terry had. Nor could he match Terry in another crucial catagory - defense. Tommy kept his hands low. Terry kept his guard high. Tommy lacked the ability to tie up and would just continue punching whereas Terry could tie his man up. In short, if Terry didnt want you to strike him, you WOULDNT.


To sum this up: defense, guard up high, movement, ability to tie his man and stifle opposing offense and pressure

another reason for the success that eluded Tommy, the fast N nimble Norris kept Leonard off balance, so often in fact, that Ray had very little chance to mount an offense and kept him on the defensive most of the night (but still left the fight with bumps N bruises)


This worked particularly well becuz Norris not only had the speed to do it but the power to make Leonard respect him!

How many time did he have ray on the floor on in trouble?

Terry just had so MANY tools; speed, movement, power, defense. No wonder it was such an easy fight. Who could compete with him?

yet, it was Leonard with all the experience. It was the student who became the teacher that night as he gave the master a lesson he'd never forget! unfvckin-believable!!!

Terry was just too fast, too smart and there was nothing ray couldve done about it. As good as Ray was, whether you believe he was the greatest welter, second greatest, third, fifth, whatever, he couldnt touch Norris. Terry turned a fight he was expected to LOSE, into a ROUT

And this would always be the case becuz whereas. Ray takes too long trying to find the right openings, Terry has just fired three four five shots

as for any names in his division missing, what names might they be?

Norris beat everyone he was expected to lose to including Mugabi, Leonard, and Curry

are those not name fighters?

then went on a rampage and cleaned out his division, depleting both contenders, former champions, champions moving up, and all time greats. You name them, he beat them and he did it in devestaing and convincing fashion

Norris, - so many tools, SO beautiful to watch in action and that left hook - so deadly and so quick, striking faster than the eye could percieve (Gatti, Mugabi). What chance did anyone have?

I think the sport was truly blessed to hae so may great fighters in the 90s like Norris and then Roy Jones (the second Sugar Ray) then Oscar, and now Floyd (still UNBEATEN!) :thumbsup

 

When Norris swallowed Leonard whole, he took care of that question and so the question retains no relevance

there seems to be a bit of resentment towards Robinson's accomplishments in the same way there is resentment towards the formidable & considerable talents of Mr. Norris, especially in the way he showed up Mr. Leonard in direct combat

turns out, both men were superior

Had Ray accepted the challenges of both Pryor & Curry, whipped both (unlikely) then I would be with you Fanman, backing up Leonard trying mightily to push him into #10 status

however the record shows that even when he was active, he would duck N dodge the better fighters, Nunn for instance, and go directly to the mediocrities Lalonde, Hearns & Duran who had seen better days which is why my suspicions of the Hagler fight, the timing of it were correct

so stop worrying and be content with the little Leonard accomplished, look to his laurels - his "WARS" with Benitez and tko over Hearns

Isnt that enough?