Why is Liston given credit for being a harder puncher than Joe Louis?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, May 24, 2023.



  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Max was more refined than Ingo, but his right hand wasn't as deadly.

    Because Ingo looks a bit awkward on film, I think people overlook how deadly that right was.

    Machen faced friggin everyone, but no one did to him what Ingo did. And even Liston didn't quite poleaxe Floyd like that with a single punch.
     
  2. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Can't agree here.

    If your definition of "weak era" requires a fighter of '38 Louis's quality, then you've got only two non-weak eras in history: 1938-1942, and 1964-67. That's kind of odd. Especially since neither of these are widely regarded as strong eras.

    Schmeling pulled about even with Sharkey, who was a lot better than Archie Moore when Sharkey was "on." (And probably even when Sharkey wasn't.) Schmeling defended his title against other contenders. Schmeling beat Louis later in his career. By the time he beat Louis, Schmeling was already older than Comeback Ali before the latter's first comeback fight. Came within an inch of winning the title twice, too, in an era that contained pre-prime Louis and a bunch of ex-champs. Schmeling didn't need to avoid people to assemble his record. He went in there against Louis (twice; despite being in his 30s), an anomalously motivated Baer who wanted to punch out a Nazi, prime Sharkey, etc. Patterson grabbed the title and proceeded to avoid everybody except Ingo, who was only the third (or second) best fighter in the world, depending on whether you want to rate Floyd as #2 or #3.


    Probably, on styles.

    I don't see any version of Patterson having a ghost of a chance against that Louis.

    That version of Louis wasn't some green incompetent. He just wasn't as good as he got at his peak. That Louis destroyed contenders and former champions. Frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable picking FOTC Frazier over him, either. For that matter, put that Louis in Frazier's place, and he'd win the post-Ali talent search tournament as well.


    Sure. Within the consensus standards of taste for great fighters, there appears to be a gap in consistency when it comes to Schmeling. Or as Max would put it, "I see somezing."
     
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  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yeah, Ingo hit harder. Schmeling was a better fighter with a solid right hand, but not anything to write home about in hitting power. Ingo was a sneaky puncher with a scary right hand.

    In very broad terms, Ingo often reminds me of Walcott, with much less skill. A guy who seems like an evasive, counterpunching annoyance, but who's actually a sneaky guy who wants to whack you with something a lot harder than you'd guess he could throw.

    (I give Ingo a better chance against Liston than Floyd had for that reason. Although Floyd was probably a little better than Ingo overall.)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    "Everyone" is really Machen, who was ranked nr. 1 by NBA when Floyd took on Harris, who was ranked nr. 4, instead. Pretty sure that Ingo was ranked nr. 1, and with good cause, after pounding Machen into the canvas.

    I think Floyd defended against 3 of the 4 guys that was ranked as nr. 1 by the NBA for more than a month or so during his reign. And the one he didn't defend against (Machen) got brutally KO'd by a guy he did defend against. That's not a super job of avoiding everyone.
     
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  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    There's the matter of Liston...
     
  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Liston rose to nr. 1 in 1960, just before Floyd regained his title. The rematch clause then stipulated a defence against Ingo. The year after that Liston got his shot.

    Yes, McNeely got a shot in between (Liston was away from boxing part of that time because of legal trouble, though), but that doesn't make that much difference. Liston got his shot when he was still more than good enough to take it. It's not like Floyd waited him out until he was a withered husk. Losing the title to Ingo and rematch clauses was the main reason Liston had to wait.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  7. northpaw

    northpaw Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :confused:
     
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  8. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    I just watched the rematch! Liston came out, jabbed his face off, threw him around and beat him down. Patterson snuck a couple of hooks in there, and he bounced a bit, but he really didn't move his feet a ton. He was hopping about right in front of Liston getting smoked
     
  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    The usual narrative is: Floyd's management avoid Machen and Williams [edit: Folley?], famously arguing that their fight canceled them both out. In the meantime, Liston's on the rise. Ingo does Floyd a favor and knocks out Machen. Floyd's management sees Ingo as an easy mark. Fight is made. Turns out they're wrong. We then see the second and third best heavies have a full trilogy while Liston waits on the sidelines, clearly the best guy in the world. This in a title reign where Floyd had once given a shot to Pete Rademacher, and had gotten floored.

    I know that these kinds of "ducking" arguments get done to death, but is that basically the right timeline for the segment at issue? Because whether or not it was Floyd's fault -- failure to fight a really good opponent rarely seems to be anyone's fault -- that's not really a reassuring title reign.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There's a lot of narratives out there, and then there's the facts.

    Williams at most made brief visits in the top 10 during Floyd's first reign, so let's get him out of the way right away. He was nowhere near being entitled to a title shot.

    And while there may be a narrative about Ingo being viewed as an easy mark, I have never seen a single shred of evidence to back it up. The fact is that he brutally KO'd Machen. Have you seen that KO? It isn't nice. If someone has Cus on record saying that he for some reason viewed him as easy money anyway, then fine, but otherwise it's just talk without any substance.

    And again you have the narrative of Liston on the rise, but the fact is that he probably hadn't even cracked the top 10 when Floyd signed with Ingo. He rose to the top spot when Ingo was champion by racking up back to back wins over Harris and Folley.
     
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  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I've seen the Machen KO. Quite bad, but part of the reason it was so scary is because of ref incompetence.

    In retrospect, benefit of hindsight, Ingo was just a really nasty puncher. But whether that was as obvious at the time, dunno
     
  12. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not gonna lie, I used to think Patterson ducked Williams, but I'll concede you've convinced me otherwise in previous debates.
     
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  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, he tried to use the ring and then spring counter attacks, like he did against Chuvalo a couple of years later. Liston was just too good and strong. It was only after the second kd that a very dazed Floyd reverted to his usual style, but that lasted about three seconds.
     
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  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's fully conceivable that Cus viewed Williams as someone they'd rather not touch. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted as little to do with that explosive power as possible. But the fact is that Cus was never put in a position where he had to try and keep Floyd away from him.
     
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  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He was KO'ing everyone he met, among them also Cooper. Not saying he had the aura of Louis, Liston or Tyson, but he was laying out more live bodies than for example Cooney or Ruddock did. And Floyd was already known for not having a stellar chin, so if his people slept on Ingo they certainly weren't doing their job.