Why is Mike Tyson ranked above Holyfield?

Yeah the idea that someone as old school and a "savant" of the art of boxing as Cus wouldn't include inside fighting in his system is silly

I think they probably determined at some point that Tyson resetting from a clinch and being able to come back in offered more opportunity for him to land a KO bomb

But then there's the lack of Cus and Rooney, and then he tries to go toe to toe and bang inside with Holyfield, which is actually a pretty big testament to Tyson

Tyson didn't seamlessly flow between his previous style and his newer style, the 6-4 landed and was effective against Holyfield but it was too little too late, he should have been more cautious/gauging with Holyfield at first but I think the idea was to blast out Holyfield early, Holyfield over prepared for Tyson and Tyson didn't take Holyfield quite as seriously as he should have, and in the second fight Tyson was even more past it and Holyfield had the blueprint

Holyfield was more independently high ring IQ while Tyson seemed to rely more on the direction of his trainers at the time, and it was not Cus or Rooney directing him

 

This is an interesting idea; to me Holy started peaking during Bowe 1. I can see what you mean about prior wars, though.

 

Peak value and overall body of work. Rankings shouldn’t always be about H2H. I have Marciano ranked No. 5 but there are multiple people below him on my list who would clobber him H2H.

 

One indicator is physique. Look at Tyson at 19 years and compare this to his mid 40s and 50s physique. Never changed. Always had the same amount of mass. Typically when you go off cycle you lose a lot of your gains. Body shape gets changed as well.

 

For a top 10 list, I look at the following categories: wins, losses, titles, quality of opposition, longevity, skill, and h2h ability.


Tyson's wins:

He doesn't have many glamorous wins or A level opponents, but makes up for it with sheer dominance at his best. He rarely lost a round when champ and has quantity over quality. Names such as Holmes, Spinx, Thomas, and Berbick were 4 of the best of the 80's and he won those in dominant fashion. You can't accuse him of ducking anyone honestly, and he beat the vast majority of the opponents put in front of him. The two Ruddock wins were very impressive given how rate it is a champion faces a dangerous elite hard hitting opponent 2x in a row. He cleared out the division in his prime, but had a much tougher time at the world level when he came back only getting 2 "okay" wins over Bruno and Seldon.

Holyfield wins:

His wins are pretty noteworthy. He has more A level wins against Bowe, Moorer, Foreman, and Tyson himself. However, Holyfield does have some questionable wins, close calls, and struggled with guys he shouldn't have on paper. Rahman lost due to a blatant foul. All 3 fights with Ruiz were close. Cooper should've been a walk in the park, but he had to dig deep and fight his life after getting nailed. As other posters pointed out, Holyfield was a hot/cold fighter. What hurts Holyfield the most is how out of shape Douglas was. It wasn't his fault of course, but the title may as well have been delivered to Holyfield via Amazon delivery.

Advantage: Tyson has a slight edge. He was both more dominant and has the quantity advantage in terms of notable wins. Holyfield was very inconsistent and some of his better wins are questionable.



Tyson losses:

The elephant in the room is his first loss. One of the worst ways to go out in your prime. The fact Douglas lost to or struggled with guys Tyson already beat made it worse, and Tyson himself admits this irony. What also hurts Tyson is he never avenged a loss. The end of his career was downright horrendous and a side show.

Holyfield losses:

He has some pretty bad losses too honestly. Bowe and Lewis are understandable since those guys were huge elite shws with skill, but then you have Moorer, Byrd, Ruiz, Toney. Granted, he was pretty old for the last 3 but they can't be ignored. Holyfield did avenge 2 losses against Bowe and Moorer. Holyfield also arguably got robbed against Valuev and remained elite well into his late 30's, early 40's.

Advantage: Clearly Holyfield. Avenged some losses, showed way more heart and resolve to win, got robbed a few times.



Tyson titles/achievements

Well he was the first major undisputed champ of the multi belt era. He also made sure to get the lineal title. Came back to win 2 more belts in the 90's. He became one of the youngest champs ever and had a decent number of title defenses over ranked opponents. He smashed ppv records and scored a staggering number of early round KOs.

Holyfield titles/achievements:

It's impressive anytime a boxer can move up in weight and become an elite force. Holyfield did just that moving from cruiserweight to win the HW title 4x. He also had pretty good ppv records and was a fairly well known household name. The main issue for Holyfield was how often he got opportunities in the first place. The guy could lose twice and then somehow get back in good graces with the sanctioning bodies. Combine that with the blatant fouls and Ped usage and you have to put some asterisks* on his overall legacy.

Advantage: I would say Tyson has a slight edge even though he won less titles. If you refer to the wins section, Tyson beat more prime elite opponents to win his titles in the first place. He was the much more dominant champ and had the better career.



Tyson quality of opponents:

On the low end, you had Holmes coming off losses and layoffs as arguably his best A level win, and Spinx moving up from LHW with a thin HW record. Thomas struggled with heroin and had hand issues, and Tubbs was simply a lazy fat ****. On the high end, Tyson beat a prime ranked Ruddock twice. Prime title holding undefeated Tony Tucker. Faced title holding Smith immediately after his best win over Witherspoon. Demolished prime versions Stewart, Biggs, Williams, and Botha. So a mixed bag for sure, but Tyson wasn't looking in alleys behind bars or having can drivers out their seats to get matches. He consistently faced the best opponents available regardless of their quality.

Holyfield quality of opponents:

Fat 40 year old version of Foreman and Holmes. An out of shape and unmotivated Douglas. Dokes and Cooper on the slide due to drug issues. Tyson was past his prime and just not the same guy after 3 years in prison and very few rounds to shake off the ring rust. Nothing was wrong with the guys who beat Holyfield tho: Bowe, Lewis, Ruiz, Byrd, etc were all in good shape and showed up with a burning desire to win and great game plans. This kind of says a lot about Holyfield and his overall legacy.

Advantage: Very obviously in Tyson's favor.



Tyson longevity:

He burned brighter than most stars, but also went out with a bang like a supernova and fell off a cliff harder than almost any major athlete I've seen. Tyson had a surprisingly brief window of dominance and never truly got back to how he used to be after his first loss. He did ok for a few fights in the 90's and then his career just rapidly declined after the Holyfield matches. Even if Tyson had his old team, I'm not sure how long he's last before he unraveled due to discipline issues (mental health, women, drugs, etc). He was a ticking time bomb and started showing red flags even in the 80's that he was starting to mentally check out.

Holyfield longevity:

Kind of already went over this. He fought well even at an advanced age in a rollercoaster career with many highs and lows. He did have surprising moments of resistance such as when he came back motivated and pushed Lewis pretty hard in the rematch despite looking pretty mediocre in the previous fight. Looked great in return bouts against Bowe and Moorer too.

Advantage: Holyfield by a big margin.



Tyson skill/h2h ability:

The master of the peak a boo style was a seek and destroy machine. An underrated jab to pierce through the defenses and set up his dizzying head movement. Powerful hooks, a fierce uppercut, strong body shots. He has great timing and contrary to the untrained eye, was in the ring carefully observing and setting up traps. He knew how to use angles and pivot to generate more power or catch guys with sharp counters they didn't see coming. He was a sight to behold with his unique blend of power, speed, and technique. However, Tyson also had some notable flaws. For a guy with so much talent and options in the ring, he had some major limitations when taken out of his comfort zone. He hates being backed up. He was uncomfortable on the inside and often clueless despite being a shorter HW. He often did nothing when tied up and usually just waited for the ref to break things...or he'd attempt to break his opponent's arm. Although Tyson was fast and fierce, he could be somewhat predictable and could be times with jabs and uppercuts. His stamina was "decent" in his prime but nothing major, and it got worse the longer his career went on. When frustrated, he often resorted to head hunting looking for a quick KO, would brawl, or hide in his turtle shell. Still, he had way more positives than negatives and was a truly scary threat who'd be a handful in any era.

Holyfield skill/h2h ability:

The real deal was a Swiss army knife and a student of the game. He could box, stick and move, counter punch, fight on the inside, or blend between various styles and strategies in his own wheelhouse. There were few things Holyfield couldn't do, and he also had good endurance and defense (when he bothered to use it). He had a good jab and hook, but lacked elite power, instead relying on volume and technique to keep guy's honest. Holyfield had a good chin for sure, but was even more impressive was his recovery and heart. When Bowe knocked him down in the first fight, he was in serious pain and could've gone at any moment but simply refused to stay down or back off. This was also his weakness as he usually slugged it out when hurt even with bigger/stronger opponents. Holyfield did mature a bit as he aged using a better guard, partying, and clinching to become more well rounded and smarter. One thing you can definitely dock points for are the infamous head butts and ball busters. Sometimes he'd do this even in fights where he was winning and it's a major stain when assessing his skill.

Advantage: I would say roughly even. Tyson had the edges in power, speed, accuracy, and timing, Holyfield has better overall technique, ring IQ , defense, and stamina. Both were quite fierce and masters of their craft and both were pretty dangerous threats at their best. I think Tyson may have won if they fought in the 80's due to younger Holyfield's bad habits and leaky defense, but who knows.



Who ranks higher:

Tyson takes it very narrowly 3-1-2. I could see arguments for Holyfield being higher, but no one should have either guy more than 1-2 spots above the other in my opinion. On my current top 10 list, Tyson can be anywhere from 7-10 I think.

 

Tyson is much smaller in his 40's and 50's than he is in his youth. He's not the same size at all.

The only time he's the same size is when he's back in the ring, because he's on cycle again lol. The notion that any 80's superstar is clean is a fantasy.

 

Tyson's peak was Mt Everest, Holyfield's peak was Mount Kilimanjaro. Holyfield was a more serviceable opponent for far longer and even beat Tyson (neither prime but Tyson was way farther beyond his) but if we're looking at where they peaked, Tyson was the apex predator of planet Earth for like 4 years..................that was never quite Holyfield.

 

Who ranks higher:

Tyson takes it very narrowly 3-1-2. I could see arguments for Holyfield being higher, but no one should have either guy more than 1-2 spots above the other in my opinion. On my current top 10 list, Tyson can be anywhere from 7-10 I think.
No, HOLYFIELD WAS A MORE COMPLETE FIGHTER
Holyfield was definitely more skilled since he was trained by defensive specialist George Benton who also trained Pernell Whitaker. Mike Tyson, Ray Mercer, Michael Moore all said Holyfield was the best fighter they fought because of his footwork, counter punching and ring I.Q.,and Lennox Lewis said his toughest fight of his career was THE 1999 rematch with Evander Holyfield and rumors says Holyfield held his own against Tyson as a light heavyweight, Holyfield beat Tyson because of skills. Prime Holyfield had very fast counters and quick feet, when Holyfield fought Tyson he was not prime Holyfield. Prime Holyfield fought Michael Dokes, James Buster Douglas , George Foreman and Riddick Bowe.