Why Is SRR Commonly Ranked Ahead of Harry Greb?

Ya know if Harrys first Madison Square Garden main event was vs Charlie Weinert in 1921 you're not making too good a point here. And this date had more to do with the laws concerning boxing in NYC at the time than anything else.

PS Weinerts underrated. Jack Sharkey said he was the best of all I fought.
Harry beat the daylights outta the guy.

 

Wow! This Forum lives! Wonderful stuff here!

May I humbly opine that--through no fault of his--Harry Greb merits an asterisked place at the top alongside Sugar Ray Robinson.

The modern thrust in favor of Harry Greb as the best ever is historically solid and must be considered.

However, film is very important. Film has allowed me to understand for myself, for example, that Rocky Marciano, for all his greatness, has been embellished in written accounts as having had a greater chin and more devastating punch than he actually did. I can clearly see that an old, light, heavyweight champion in Walcott came close to finishing Rocky in Round 12 of a grueling contest, as well as the punch after punch after punch Rocky had to land to finally finish off the likes of Layne, an old Moore, an old Charles, and others.

I could elaborate on how film has opened my eyes to the unique abilities of Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson. I thus place them very highly on my personal all-time heavyweight list, even when, on paper, their records may not look all that impressive.

Film is an equalizer, an essential element of evaluation, and there is no film of Greb, save less-than-flattering training footage.

Ray Robinson evidences everything great on film; the smooth, splendid, savage Sugar Man looks the part of the greatest ever, and, of course, he has that awesome record.

Thus, in fairness to all, I now personally place the amazing Pittsburgh Windmill at the top of my pound-for-pound list, but, for the time being, there is an asterisk by his name.

 

I think part of the problem is you rate Harry Greb's foes to be greater than the people SRR fought... and I dont' agree with such an assesment. I believe SRR era was just plain better. Even the fighters you mention and scold SRR for not having the balls to fight are better than ANYBODY Greb did fight... Charles and Moore are better than ANYBODY on Greb's resume. I would add that Marshall and Burely are better than the vast majority of anybody on Greb's list. So to scold SRR for not moving up in weight to fight guys better than Greb ever fought is pretty silly. Not only that... SRR was a NATURAL WW... That was his prime and best weight... so how can you hold him to the same criteria of moving up against a person that is a natural MW? That also makes no sense.

 

So did Greb. Or are you implying that Harry turned in more bad performances on average than Robinson? How was Greb poorly managed if he was BEATING those guys??

And I still don't see how SRR "managing himself better" is relevant to the debate. By that argument Floyd Mayweather is greater than Harry Greb because he didn't take every fight and was a notorious negotiator.

We're assessing Greb vs Robinson as fighters here, not as businessmen. As businessmen then I agree, SRR and Mayweather and many others, for that matter, were all 10 times the businessmen that Greb was.

Greb was at his best on fight night, too. Unless you can provide some examples to the contrary that support your contention that Greb's fight schedule was a bad idea? Because the record sure doesn't support what you're saying.

Are you aware that Harry Greb fought in NY 43 times?

 

And this carries weight with you? TUNNEY'S account? Boxing autobiographies are notorious for being masterpieces of revisionist history and self-congratulatory claptrap. A Man Must Fight, The Roar of the Crowd, ad infinitum. Tunney is like any other fighter in that he has more excuses than the NHL has playoff games. His memoirs are amusing at best. Senya has already pointed out (and I reposted) some of the flaws in Tunney's recollections in that book.

We had someone earlier citing some craziness that "Tunney had the flu before the second bout" and now it's "Tunney was injured going into the first bout" (coincidentally, both fights in which Tunney got bested by Greb, despite what the judges ruled after the 2nd bout). "adrenaline fumes"..."brandy"...good heavens! Tunney can sell you anything, amigo. I'm jesting with you, my friend. But really, you mustn't be so gullible.

Yes but Robinson LOST to Maxim, the one LHW champ he fought. Greb beat Tunney, Loughran, Maxie Rosebloom, Jimmy Slattery, Jack Dillon and Battling Levinsky, All LHW champs (though Gene was only state champ). Plus he beat Kid Norfolk, who very likely would have copped the LHW championship had he been given a shot.

You're starting to disappoint me here, Ovid Two of the losses to Tiger were controversial and happened at the arse-end of Greb's career. It's silly to cite those, just as silly as me citing SRR's losses to Joey Archer, Ferd Hernandez and Stan Harrington (were those controversial?).

 

So because YOU don't think that a Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Jack Dillon, Maxie Rosenbloom, MICKEY WALKER, Billy Miske, Battling Levinsky, Tiger Flowers were stiffs, and the great boxing writers who voted these guys to the Boxing HOF, somehow knew LESS than you
K, than I humbly bow to your infinite boxing acumen...Why the heck don't you put an asterik on any fighter prior to television ,and just say that you are more worthy than thousands of boxers, trainers, historians of the past who put those guys in the HOF, AGAINST YOUR wishes...?
Good day...
P.S. For your information right after Randy Turpin beat Ray Robinson in
London in 1951, they conducted a survey of ringside reporters who saw Mickey Walker flatten the British MW champion Tommy Milligan in London 1927...The question asked was who would have won between Mickey Walker and Ray Robinson had they fought ? By a very large percentage they picked Mickey Walker, who was thrashed by an old creaky Harry Greb
i year before the faded Harry Greb died...But of course the Toy Bulldog
who took on HWTs like Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Paolino Uzcudun,
and Bearcat Wright amongst others was also not comparable to the tv era in your esteemed mind...

 

Edit :eliminate DON'T in first sentence please..

 

I disagree. In his prime he fought middleweights Georgie Abrams and Holly Mims and struggled badly. In fact most thought that Abrams BESTED him. Robinson struggled badly with just about every rugged MW he fought, whether good or great. So it is no stretch for me at all to envision him losing to many of the greats. I see Greb pounding the blazes out of him.

You mean the little green 17 fight newcomer who fought the 79 fight veteran Zivic? Man, are YOU a cantankerous judge! Cut the guy some slack, here. That fight proved nothing. You think SRR after 17 fights was a lock to beat that version of Zivic?

Keep in mind that Burley went on to trounce Zivic.

 

They were. Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Mike Gibbons, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dillon, Tommy Gibbons, Kid Norfolk, Jeff Smith, Battling Levinsky, Jimmy Slattery, Leo Houck, Billy Miske, Lou Bogash, Bill Brennan.....the list goes on and on. And unlike SRR, Greb didn't miss anyone. With few exceptions, if you were a top level fighter from MW to HW, Greb beat you, Unless you were avoiding him like Dempsey, Delaney, Berlenbach, Carpentier, etc.

 

A great resume has SRR. But for a nonpareil resume, I always find myself returning to this guy:

KEY-
10- top 10 contender
#-Faced Multiple times
CH-Champion
H-HOFer

Harry Greb

Greb faced 13 HOFers(possibly more, too lazy to look) and beat ALL of them, in some cases numerous times. And let us also not forget that four of the middleweight champions on Robby's record became middleweight champs BECAUSE THEY BEAT ROBINSON(Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio, Pender).

Take a deep breath. Here goes some of Greb's highlight victories:

Gene Tunney- #,CH, H,
(the first victory alone trumps any single accomplishment in SRR's career, IMO. Add that Gene only clearly got the best of Harry in 2 of their 5 bouts, many decrying one of Gene's wins as an outright robbery(commisioner Muldoon as well as various sportswriters) and the "draw" many thought could have gone to Greb. I have many newspaper clipping from ALL of their bouts.)

Mickey Walker- CH, H
(also trumps any single accomplishment in SRR's career, IMO)

LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHTS:

Tommy Loughran- #, CH, H (fought him SIX times, Harry won 4 with 1 draw)
Maxie Rosenbloom- CH, H (Greb thrashed him)
Jimmy Slattery- CH, H
Jack Dillon- #, CH, H(Harry won both bouts by a landslide)
Battling Levinsky- #, CH, H (fought 6 times, Harry winning ALL)
Mike McTigue- #, CH (Harry won BOTH by a landslide)
Kid Norfolk- #, 10, H (Greb won first bout, Norfolk the 2nd by DQ)
Tommy Gibbons- #, 10, H (4 bouts. Gibs won 1st 2. Greb got his number and whipped him second 2. Final fight considered best of Greb's career)

Billy Miske- #, 10, (3 fights, Greb won 2, 1 draw. Miske much better than disease ravaged pug who fought Dempsey. Read Callis' article on him to get an idea of just how good this guy was)

Lou Bogash- 10, (look at his record. Amazing)
Chuck Wiggins- #, 10, (Fought 9 times. Harry won 8 with 1 questionable draw).
Jimmy Delaney- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3 fights)
Allentown Joe Gans- 10 (much avoided black fighter)
Billy Shade- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH fights)
Jack Reddick- 10
Art Weigand- 10

Middleweights:

Mickey Walker- 'Nuff Said.
Tiger Flowers- #, CH, H (3 bouts, Greb got draw in first. Narrowly lost second[some thought he won]. Third bout considered a robbery in Flower's favor by writers, commissioner and Tunney[observer and friend to both])

Mike Gibbons- #, 10, H [title claimant](2 bouts. Gibs won close 6 rounder. Greb won 10 rounder)

George Chip- #, CH (4 bouts. Chip won 1st and drew. Greb got his number and won second 2)

Mike O'Dowd- CH (draw in O'Dowd's hometown, which means possibly a Greb win)
Eddie McGoorty- 10, [title claimant] Future HOFer??
Jeff Smith- #, 10, [title claimant] HOF(7 bouts. Greb won 6 with 1 draw)
Johnny Wilson- #, CH (3 bouts, ALL won by Greb)
Al McCoy- #, CH (Greb won BOTH)
Leo Houck- #, 10 [title claimant] HOF (Greb won ALL three. Check Houck's record. Outstanding)
Augie Ratner- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH. see above comment. Record incredible)
Frank Mantell- 10, (title claimant)
Gus Christie- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
Buck Crouse- 10
Young Ahearn- 10
Bob Moha- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 6)
Joe Borrell- #, 10 (Greb won 2 with 1 draw)
Fay Keiser- #, 10 (Greb won 7 with 2 draws)
Jackie Clarke- #, 10 (Greb won 3 with 1 draw)
Ted Moore- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
Jimmy Darcy- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
Willie Brennan- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
Whitey Wenzel- #, 10(?) (Greb won 6 with 2 draws)
Soldier Bartfield- #, 10 (Greb won 3 with 1 draw)
Tommy Robson- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 3)
Terry Martin- 10
Silent Martin- 10
Bryan Downey- 10
Frank Moody- 10
Roland Todd- 10

HEAVYWEIGHTS

Bill Brennan- #, 10 (Greb won ALL 4 fights)
Jack Renault- #, 10 (Greb won BOTH)
Charlie Weinert- 10
Bartley Madden- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 3)
Gunboat Smith- # (past prime)
Homer Smith- 10(?)
Martin Burke- 10(?)
Willie Meehan- #, 10(?) (Greb won BOTH)
Bob Roper- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 6)
Clay Turner- #, 10(?) (Greb won ALL 7)


ALSO, LOOK HOW OFTEN HARRY FOUGHT AND AT WHAT LEVEL. HE PACKED MUCH MORE ACTION INTO A MUCH SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME. ROBBY FOUGHT 1.403 ROUNDS IN A 25 YEAR CAREER. GREB FOUGHT 2,591 ROUNDS IN A 13 YEAR CAREER. THAT'S ALMOST TWICE AS MUCH IN HALF AS LONG.:good

 

I see Kid Gavilan is getting undersold yet again.

 

A lot of hot air being spewed here and not much facts. MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM would say Charles and Moore are above ANY of the guys you posted. That just isn't me saying that (nice try) the majority would say that.

 

K.it is You who is spewing "hot air"...How do you know that a Gene Tunney or Tommy Gibbons or Tommy Loughran ,to name a few, could not beat nor hold their own with an Ezzard Charles, nor an Archie Moore in a 15 round bout ? Tell me who on this "forum" would you call an expert over the great boxing writers who transcended the 1920s through the 1950 era, and rated
those 3 LHs amongst the greatest. ? Tell me who K ? The darn fact of the matter is GREB fought all these HOF LHs [whether you agree or not], and beat them spotting them 15 pounds and ONE EYE to boot, whilst SRR
played it safe, and as Surf has posted, Robinson when he fought top MWs as Georgie Abrams, Henry Brimm, Holly Mims, Ralph Tiger Jones, Artie Levine {who had Robinson on his back for 17 seconds ] etc , had loads of trouble...Imagine Robby taking on Greb's LH and HW opponents almost weekly, spotting them 15 or more pounds, and whipping those guys. ?
Facts are facts K, and Greb though not as beautiful to watch as Robinson,
was the more daring and effectual fighter by far...Just look at the record
and not your personal desires...

 

So Greb IS a career Middleweight? A middleweight in his last fight? And the Middleweight limit is 160? And he beat LHW champions and some ranked HW's while Robinson was TKO'ed when he tried ONCE to do the same? Pretty Simple Really...

You shouldn't even be posting, have you finished you "own eyes" review of every fight filmed yet? I don't think so.

BTW You should quit trying to pontificate. You are not good at it. I used your own direct quotes on "seeing for yourself" and backed up what I said with attributed references. You talk ad infinitum about your feeling and opinions supported only by your own ego. Like a teenage girl. You project your "moving the goalposts" and "strawman" arguments on others. You prefer to to try to badger people into accepting your interpretations. I can do that.
I have shown using your own quotes and your own standards that the logical outcome of such a position is ABSURD. Now you really must admit your position is logically indefensible and untenable. NUFF SAID

If you were not a Troll you would have taken up my offer to tone down the rhetoric and answer the historical question I asked.
Who is your career middleweight who can do in one year what Greb did in 1919? You don't have one? I thought not - is it gettin musty under that bridge?

 

Why on God's green earth would I answer a question of yours when you couldn't even make a simple concession of your own? Let me try this again DID YOU NOT SAY THAT GREB when moving up in weight.. beat all these guys while weighing UNDER 160 pounds? Did you not say this? Is that not totally false? So when called out on that you resort to moving the goalposts and red herrings. You tried to divert your mistake by trying to argue points I never made.. like below

1. I never said Greb wasn't considered a great MW
2. I never made the claim that Greb wasn't considered a mW by many
3. I never made the claim that we throw out fights we can't see
4. Nor did I make the claim that we can't gleam any info from newspaper reporters who saw fights that we weren't able to see

You made all of the above points and claims that I never argued. How on earth do you think you're winning this debate by arguing points and claims I never made? That isn't making you look good.. it's making you far far worse the longer this goes. All the while, STILL not admitting you were flat out wrong in your statement. How is it trolling to call you out on your fallacies and false statements? How is it trolling to expect a grown man to be able to concede he was wrong? That isn't trolling in the least. Now, once you concede that you you were incorrect in your statement AND concede in never made ANY of the arguments I listed above. Then, I'll get to answering your questions.