Why Is SRR Commonly Ranked Ahead of Harry Greb?

You didn't list the newspapermen who covered the event. You listed a Minnesota and a Canadian newspaper. Those aren't primary sources. I already listed all the ringside newspapers. 19 of 23 thought Greb should have left the ring with his title(a good number from Tunney's hometown, which speaks volumes). That is something you can trust. The VAST majority thought Greb beat him.

Add this as well (quoting Klompton here): The earlier verdict of ten rounds for Greb quoted from the NY Morning Telegraph was from Sam Taub. James Sinnot, writing for the same paper, also gave it to Greb by a margin of 8 rnds, 5 Tunney, and 2 even. He added that a draw would have been an injustice. Joe Lynch, then bantamweight champion, interviewed by the Sun, felt Greb won it. Dumb Dan Morgan had this to say- "It was the most boldfaced robbery Ive ever witnessed. If were Tunneys manager I wouldn't allow him to accept the title on such a decision."

So now our tally is (excluding Joe Lynch and one of the judges): 6 for Tunney, 17 for Greb, and 4 a draw. or 21 of 27 (77%) who felt Greb should have kept his crown. More than three fourths of some of the most respected boxing minds in the country (that we know witnessed the fight) felt Tunney DID NOT deserve the decision.

 

The scores don't tell the whole story though. If you read the fight reports, Mims gave Robinson hell. And Abrams pretty much beat him according to the majority. Even when SRR gained weight he STILL struggled with MWs.

Yes, but he lost to them too. So in his prime we have him struggling with Mims and Abrams and after it he's struggling with Fullmer and Basilio and others. I think we can come to the conclusion that, as great a fighter as he was, SRR wasn't a dominant middleweight like a Harry Greb or fighters like that. At welter, he was clearly dominant. At MW, he struggled big time. I don't think this fact bodes well in H2H matchups with the elite ATG MWs.

 

I still think you're being hard on Charley Burley

 

This is a quote from Slakka from another thread:

Adding to the tally Greb vs Tunney rematch

All 4 Brooklyn papers, Greb
Staten Island advance, Greb
Dum Dan Morgan ringside, Greb
George Engel, Tunneys own corner man, Greb
Frank Fornoy MSG matchmaker, Greb

Enough to make ya wonder, what if Harry had two good eyes??!!

 

Dont be absurd. You didnt just trust the fighters. You took ONE fighters word. You didnt just trust newspapermen. You took one small cross section which supported your argument. And in the situation, a fight which was considered one of the most controversial outcomes in the history of the sport to that time, no you cannot "just trust the officials and the referee." But, you wouldnt know that because the only research youve done on this fight is to read what supports your argument. You havent read the articles beginning several months in advance which discuss how there is a plan in place to rob Greb of his title. You havent read the articles which discuss how Greb and his wife were threatened prior to the bout. You havent read the articles which discuss how a referee was selected for the fight and specifically instructed to hamper Greb's style. You havent read the accounts of how that referee spent ten full minutes in ring center during the pre fight instructions outlining what Greb was not allowed to do. You havent read the accounts about Billy Gibson and Gene Tunney flooded the newspapers prior to the fight with propaganda. you definately havent read the vast majority of accounts which not only state that Greb should have retained his title but state very clearly that it was a clear cut decision and one of the worst robberies ever. Finally, I guess you havent read Tunney's own biography where he admits that Greb had a claim to a bad decision prompting the third fight. I guess youve never read any accounts of their third fight either, several (not a majority) thought Greb won that one as well. I guess youve never read the accounts of how Tunney refused a huge payday to face Greb in Ebensberg PA offered by Schwab because he was afraid he wouldnt get favorable treatment. Instead Tunney settled on "neutral" Cleveland and once again petitioned to have the referee limit Greb and appealed to the newspapers to write about Greb's alledgely dirty tactics. I guess you didnt read how that fight turned out for Gene? He fought like a scared rabbit in the face of Greb's aggression and lost by the majority opinion of those present. Greb offered again to give Tunney a large purse to fight him in Pittsburgh and stated Tunney could have the decision before the bout even started just for the satisfaction of Greb showing Pittsburgh fans how Tunney had "mastered" him... Youre great about making excuses for Tunney: "he was injured, he was sick, etc." I guess you didnt know that Greb went into the fourth and fifth Tunney fights with cracked ribs that Tiger Flowers gave him. Maybe you forgot that he was blind in one eye by the time he fought Tunney and had something like 200 hundred fights. Kind of a lot of ringwear for a smaller, older, lighter fighter with a shorter reach and no depth perception.

 

This sounds like typical Tunney pre-fight shenanigans. I think it was you who pointed out to me all of the B.S. he put poor aging Jeff Smith through before finally fighting him. Tunney always was careful to make sure that he had every conceivable advantage before stepping into the ring. A real prima donna. It's one of the reasons why I think he's overrated and why he definitely does not belong on the same tier of greatness as Greb, Walker, Leonard and other contemporaries.

I read that too. LOVED it. Greb calling Gene out on his B.S.

 

Which is all great stuff and important stuff to read Klompton and I look forward to picking up your book. That said, you just can't replace see somebody with your eyes and being able to judge him for yourself. You can't beat watching an actual fight yourself to see who won instead of relying on what others say happened. Sure, you can sometimes draw reasonable conclusions based on an accumulation of accounts... yet that still is never better than being able to see for yourself how the fight went. Many people judge fights differently and have their own bias about fights. So eliminating that is a big thign when you can watch it for yourself. Not tryign to take anything away from Greb or what he accomplished.. but really it comes down to that when I rank SRR and Greb. Greb is still top 3 in my book anyways.

 

Everything you say is true from what I read on Robinson. Just for your examination and scrutiny I will submit my most current top ten. I have consistanly ranked Greb number once I found out how great he was some years back. I haven't seen many rank him that high. I can can easily see someone ranking him over Robinson for everything you and others here have mentioned. It still seem a little sacreligious to me right now to have anyone other that Robbie up there. This post may change my thoughts after some consideration.

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Thanks for the convo. I definately learned something.

 

Surf Bat, Davis J Walsh of the Rochester Evening Journal was at the fight where he got the opinions of the other journalists. I assume he was sent there on some sort of train or automobile, and might have used a telegraph or telephone to send his report back to his home paper. The newspaper men he cited, and which I in turn quoted were from The New York Times, The New York Herald, New York World, New York American, etc.

Also, could you name the Brooklyn and Staten Island papers which you claim back your opinion as well as their articles writers names and the dates of publication?

I feel like you didn't read anything I wrote when you say that I wasn't taking the opinions of New Yorkers into account. For instance, you never addressed the last article I quoted where Greb was accused of bribing newspaper men for good press. I didn't see any of that in your post #109 above.

I'm also a little surprised you haven't mentioned all the fouling Greb was accused of in that fight. It seemed to be in every paper I read. He was warned multiple times for headbutting and hitting on the break. At one point, he even got into it with the ref, who said that he should have disqualified him. Besides that, a lot of the papers seemed to think it was a stinker of a fight with too much clinching and wrestling and neither fighter looking particularly impressive. But that's not the picture you've been at pains to paint is it? You and Anubis a page or so back. You aren't happy enough with the one victory everybody agrees upon. You have to make it three.

 

Thanks for the replies and challeges on this and the other post. I will give you the credit yiu deserve for the research you've done. That record list you posted for Greb and Robinson was impressive. I will be using it reference point.

I am a seriously out of my depth and I definately learned a few things.

Thanks.

 

Surf do you not consider Bobo Olsen a middleweight?

 

An awful lot of people at the time weren't happy with the one victory everybody agrees upon. But after what "klompton2" has posted about their third match, I now have to join that "several (not a majority)" to make it FOUR! [But that's only to vex you! :silly]

 

Davis James Francis Walsh wasn't from Rochester Evening Journal, he was from International News Service.

 

What about all of the fouling Tunney was accused of? What about the several independant reporters who stated that Tunney was dirtier than Greb and that Tunney repeatedly played to the ref's and crowds sympathies by trying to make it look like Greb was fouling him when he wasnt? I guess you didnt read that either.

"Every paper I read..." Thats laughable. Pick up where you left off, read about twenty plus more and then get back to us. Apparently you stopped reading after somehow managing to read ONLY those VERY FEW sources who voted for Tunney (and who had likely been paid off, as he would later admit was standard practice for Billy Gibson and Frank Bagley.

 

W.C. Vreeland reported the bout for Brooklyn Daily Eagle.
Brooklyn Standard Union didn't have its report signed, but it's pretty obvious that it was written by the sporting editor of that newspaper,William Arthur Rafter.
The report in Brooklyn Citizen and Brooklyn Times respectively, I suppose, were written by William James Granger and Leonard Frederick Wooster, sporting editors of those two newspapers, but I may be wrong.