Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

I didn't suggest that at any point of his career. I also think you overstate Ali's popularity. Maybe he's that popular in the US, but not necessarily in the rest of the world.

 

And you would rival Einstein.

 

He didn't. He didn't "build" modern boxing.

-He didn't invent boxing commissions
-or promoters
-or set the number of rounds
-or the neutral corner
-or mouth pieces
-or cups
-or the global ranking system to determine the contenders
-or introducing the concept of referees

The only thing he helped pioneer is to have the title change hands from the champion to the challenger and he wasn't solely responsible for that either.

To say he single-handedly built modern boxing is laughable.

By "paper thin" I mean thin compared to all the things Ali did that influenced people after him. Sullivan has literally 1 thing over Ali and it doesn't trump everything else Ali did.

It has everything to do with your birth certificate and only partly to do with skill. No matter how skilled you are you can't go back in time.ro become the first champ.

Acknowledged.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. I have an issue with people either pretending not to get what I'm saying or ignoring it. I know you're smart so that's why I was frustrated.

Once again using the term built very loosely. You're basically giving Sullivan credit for the works of thousands of boxers which is easily one of the goofier arguments on this thread.

How about this: name 5 boxers who fought after Sullivan's era who named him as their biggest influence.

 

I know more about boxing than you. I'm not the one choosing boxers from 100 years ago to win against their modern counterparts

 

He pretty much did tho. No one had done it to the level Ali did. There's really no comparison.

 

Of course Louis/Schmeling was of huge international significance. I literally wrote a paper about it and my sports history professor even referenced it to discuss how African American athletes had it rough and constantly needed to prove themselves.

I wasn't saying Ali was the only one to engage in big internationally significant fights. I was saying he was the first HW champion make it a point to have a truly global presence fighting in several different countries, having sparring/exhibitions all over the world, etc. And he was the first truly big self promoting boxer.

The fact you keep glossing over the fact Sullivan was primarily an American fighter and had drawn the color line are the main reasons why I keep saying there's no comparison. It's laughable. Sullivan was obviously a huge figure of the time but as a boxing champion he absolutely didn't have the sort of global presence Ali did, and he certainly couldn't hold a candle to Ali's self promoting.

The main reason this discussion has been fruitless is that I have repeatedly acknowledged Sullivan's contributions to the sport and you repeatedly dismiss Ali's or act as if his don't even hold a candle to the sort of influence Ali had. That's why I suggested you're being disingenuous. It has nothing to do with you simply "disagreeing".

 

John L the GOAT. You know when I first read about boxing I read he fought 75 rounders etc and thought that, that was it John L>Ali.

 

Well spoken brother.

 

You have to be trolling, but I’ll feed you…whilst I do think that Sullivan gets underrated and overlooked on this forum as a hole, as he was arguably as dominant as any champion of any weight class that fought post his era, he can’t be considered higher ranked than Ali…now while I’ll concede that Ali gets overrated in general, it can’t be denied that not only was he a dominant champion that essentially lapped his division and lost 3 prime years, he also carried the sport on his back alone for nearly 2 decades

 

Of course you do.

 

But going to self promotion, did Ali do it better then Dempsey or Sullivan?? Maybe, maybe not. This is a world pre TV. Ali could have gone on TV and yelled there will be a thriller and a killer when I get the gorilla in Manilla. which he did to sell the 3rd Frazier fight. Dempsey and Sullivan did not have that. Hell Sullivan did not even have radio and was a new thing for Dempsey. Yet still people came to see Sullivan fight in large numbers in both the US and his European tour. and Dempsey??? The guy was making million $ gates and having large crowds going to his fights and having records that would not be broken in 67 years. Somehow these 2 and other guys in their eras where able to get their message across for their title fights. I see Ali and the later guys having TV to help sell their fights being a big impact then earlier. Did Mayweather's recent fights make more money and drew in of a crowd and views then Ali Foreman??

 

It's just one of the many questions that you ask yourself during your lifetime of which you'll never
know the answer. It's bewildering, I tell you, really bewildering.

 

I avoid thinking about it. One time when I made the mistake of trying to figure it all out, it pushed me into insomnia over several days. It twisted me up more than John L’s moustache.

 

Do you think todays guys know how to fight a guy with such a amazing Moustache??? One wrong jab and your entire hand could end up tangle and twisted in the Great John L's moustache. Lewis could have his hands all tied up in Sullivan's moustache leaving him open for a over hand right.