Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

When will you reach your final form and join the forum as a real poster? Whoever’s alt you are.

 

Any man over 180 ish lbs can knock out any other man with the right punching technique, natural power, speed and surprise factor.

Joe Louis is an elite puncher in terms of punch mechanics. His actual boxing skill gets downplayed. He threw a strong, quick jab - yes could paw with it at times but like Lennox, used his jab in multiple ways.

There's things that Louis did with his punching, his off centre head placement, his jab, parry of the return jab and then follow up jab, the explosion of his right cross and straight right, old school moves like guard manipulation with intentionally thrown jabs or hooks to clear a path for his knockout right hand - many fighters today wouldn't have the skillset to deal with.

I also think it's a mistake to compare Louis with this supposed better modern fighter as if you take a man with his skillset and throw him in the modern era, with the benefits of sports science, greater access to nutrition, functional training and monitoring, he would arguably be more devastating, not less.

 

Bro look at my posting history. I’m not an alt! I’ve been here longer than you.

 

Goofy question. Ali wouldn't become a gluttonous alcoholic focusing primarily on power in his training and Sullivan wouldn't be focused on speed skipping rope and running. They have completely different fighting styles and diets.

 

In a street fight, I have Sullivan ranked waaaaayyy ahead of Ali.

 

Because the score is not the only measure of success, and the legacy of a boxer.
If score were the main and only consideration, then Andre Ward, Rocky Marciano, Joe Calzaghe (and other undefeated professional boxers) would be above Sugar Ray Robinson, which is not the case.

 

Only if looks can kill. The bodybuilder lost to a bucket of lard.

 

It is a goofy question. Im guessing you didn't see my follow-up reply saying nevermind its a ridiculous question , dont answer that. Lol

 

Joshua is not an ATG.
But he'd still beat Louis.

 

You're joking right? In terms of historical significance people will probably still be talking about Ali when our grandkids are on these forums. He has immortalized himself with things like the rope a dope, the shuffle dance, predicting rounds, etc. First 3x champion and a stacked resume.

 

Stop it. Right now.

People only talk about Sullivan because of his cool moustache and iconic pose. The average person and even the average boxing fan don't know who he is when they see his picture without context. Ali is 100x more iconic and his pose standing over Liston is forever immortalized with one of the most familiar faces in human history.

He stole the show in Corbett's movie? Cool. Dempsey and even Max Baer were more popular actors. Dempsey was also a bigger superstar having been the first boxer to have a million dollar gate, and the both of them combined didn't compare to Ali's popularity at the height of his stardom.

Holmes and Wladmir had comparably long reigns, let alone Louis' staggering 25 title defenses.

Sullivan is beaten in every single category you've brought up.

Ali made possible for boxers to take full control of their careers self promoting and paving the way similar to what Mayweather and LeBron James did recently.

As for the changes in rules for MoQ, you're acting like Sullivan single-handedly came up with and initiated them or something. He just happened to be the first gloved HW champion. That's it. That's the main thing he's known for and most people don't even know that unless they're a boxing historian or a hardcore fan. People immediately know who Ali is and what he did.

And if we're talking about social/political issues this argument becomes even more hilariously 1 sided but I don't even need to go there.

 

That's not true and you know it. Sullivan is definitely a huge icon, especially for a man living during Victorian times. I can't think about any sportsman even close to being this popular from the 19th century.

 

Cross Trainer is right, Ali is a great and not taking anything way, but the sport is what it is TODAY because of the changings Sullivan, NOT ALI made. what would the sport look like today had the Sullivan Corbett fight been fought under bare fist and boxers never don on gloves in there fights?? The likes of Ali and Fraizer would really have to change there styles and striking. Boxing is the house Sullivan build and history wise is perhaps the most important, does not matter if he could supposely beat later champs or lack of footage. He build the sport from a backdoor hiding from the police affair to the money maker it is today.

 

The moustache is one of the only reasons random people recognize Sullivan so you're not helping your argument at all.

I didn't suggest Sullivan was some forgotten person. I'm just saying if you're going to bring up movies Dempsey, Baer, arguably even Tyson blow him out the water.

I didn't remotely suggest this.

And he gets credit for doing that and encouraging wearing gloves. But he didn't invent gloves. He just happened to be the first gloved champ which, again, nobody except hardcore boxing fans even know. You said it yourself it was "unusual", not that he was the only person or the first person to fight with gloves. Calling him the pioneer of modern gloves boxing has an asterisk*.

You don't know that. Given boxing's track record they might have started mandating gloved bouts anyways.

Downplaying Ali's social significance is too ridiculous for me to respond to.

 

Nonsense