Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

Joshua is not an ATG.
But he'd still beat Louis.

 

You're joking right? In terms of historical significance people will probably still be talking about Ali when our grandkids are on these forums. He has immortalized himself with things like the rope a dope, the shuffle dance, predicting rounds, etc. First 3x champion and a stacked resume.

 

I'm absolutely not joking. People are still talking about Sullivan now, despite his reigning in the Victorian era. At a comparable distance in time to Ali's distance from our world today, Sullivan was still regarded as a larger than life character. Heck, he stole the show in Jim Corbett's biographical movie.

Sullivan was one of the world's first sporting superstars, and defined the boxing lineage to such an extent that we start it with him. He cemented the MoQ rules champion as the baddest man on the planet, and left boxing an institutionalized, global, massively profitable sport. Sullivan made possible what came after him. His 10 year reign was extremely influential.

 

Stop it. Right now.

People only talk about Sullivan because of his cool moustache and iconic pose. The average person and even the average boxing fan don't know who he is when they see his picture without context. Ali is 100x more iconic and his pose standing over Liston is forever immortalized with one of the most familiar faces in human history.

He stole the show in Corbett's movie? Cool. Dempsey and even Max Baer were more popular actors. Dempsey was also a bigger superstar having been the first boxer to have a million dollar gate, and the both of them combined didn't compare to Ali's popularity at the height of his stardom.

Holmes and Wladmir had comparably long reigns, let alone Louis' staggering 25 title defenses.

Sullivan is beaten in every single category you've brought up.

Ali made possible for boxers to take full control of their careers self promoting and paving the way similar to what Mayweather and LeBron James did recently.

As for the changes in rules for MoQ, you're acting like Sullivan single-handedly came up with and initiated them or something. He just happened to be the first gloved HW champion. That's it. That's the main thing he's known for and most people don't even know that unless they're a boxing historian or a hardcore fan. People immediately know who Ali is and what he did.

And if we're talking about social/political issues this argument becomes even more hilariously 1 sided but I don't even need to go there.

 

No, Sullivan was not known in the 1940s because he had a mustache. Nor do I consider Ali being in an iconic picture to be a major impact on society.

It's not really a question of being a good actor (Sullivan, btw, was long dead when the movie was made; he didn't play himself any more than Ali did in Ali.) The point is to get a sense of how Sullivan was viewed 60 years after his reign started, a comparable gap to Ali's from our world of 2022. Sullivan wasn't some forgotten person known only by specialists.

Ali founded the lineal championship?

On the contrary, Ali collaborated with Don King, who took over after Ali's departure and imposed a draconian, exploitative grip on the division.

In fighting on too long, Ali also left behind an image of the sport as brutal and destructive rather than fun. Which, fair enough: it is. But boxing's decline from the mainstream coincides with late 70s Ali. The image Ali left behind in the public consciousness is as much about enfeeblement of a once great athlete, brain trauma, and Parkinsons as about his title reign. (Whether he actually owed his Parkinsons to boxing is a different question.)

Not so. Sullivan insisted on defending his title with gloves. This was unusual. Sparring was common with gloves; titles changing hands not so much. Sullivan toured the country, moving boxing into the mainstream across the United States. He created the market that every future boxer relied upon to stay in business. Including Ali. No Sullivan, no Ali.

Most recognizable to the current generation of people doesn't equal most influential. Floyd and Conor MacGregor are probably as recognizable as Ali these days.

It does indeed. The 60s/70s Boomer revolt happens whether Ali is around or not. (Although I guess it might have been slightly different without Ali's call for racial segregation.) Boxing -- the sport Ali actually reached prominence in -- does not remain the same without Sullivan.

 

That's not true and you know it. Sullivan is definitely a huge icon, especially for a man living during Victorian times. I can't think about any sportsman even close to being this popular from the 19th century.

 

Cross Trainer is right, Ali is a great and not taking anything way, but the sport is what it is TODAY because of the changings Sullivan, NOT ALI made. what would the sport look like today had the Sullivan Corbett fight been fought under bare fist and boxers never don on gloves in there fights?? The likes of Ali and Fraizer would really have to change there styles and striking. Boxing is the house Sullivan build and history wise is perhaps the most important, does not matter if he could supposely beat later champs or lack of footage. He build the sport from a backdoor hiding from the police affair to the money maker it is today.

 

The moustache is one of the only reasons random people recognize Sullivan so you're not helping your argument at all.

I didn't suggest Sullivan was some forgotten person. I'm just saying if you're going to bring up movies Dempsey, Baer, arguably even Tyson blow him out the water.

I didn't remotely suggest this.

And he gets credit for doing that and encouraging wearing gloves. But he didn't invent gloves. He just happened to be the first gloved champ which, again, nobody except hardcore boxing fans even know. You said it yourself it was "unusual", not that he was the only person or the first person to fight with gloves. Calling him the pioneer of modern gloves boxing has an asterisk*.

You don't know that. Given boxing's track record they might have started mandating gloved bouts anyways.

Downplaying Ali's social significance is too ridiculous for me to respond to.

 

Nonsense

 

Yeah, he was huge back then, not so much within the last 70 years. Ali has remained huge decades after his retirement and years after his death. He is possibly the biggest sports icon of all time.

 

I don't like Ali at all, and even I agree with what you said.

 

Sullivan fought in an era with horsehair gloves, an era where fights took place in bars, farms, etc. Lots of blatant wrestling and rough housing. Not sure how his boxing remotely gave rise to the boxers of Ali's era other than the implementation of gloves.

 

It was more than that, they had to hide the Kilrain fight from the police. the reason it was held in farms and other odd locations because it was outlaw. Can you image the buildup to the Fury Wilder 3 fight, but oh no, you cannot see it on live TV, and you had to go to a boat to see the fight with money and maybe a password to see the event, and hope the police does not break in and arrest you and the fighters on the spot? Sullivan helping to make the sport legal was perhaps the biggest influence of all time.

 

You said that Ali beats him in all the dimensions I cited. One of those dimensions I cited was Sullivan's status as the first champion. That's why I mentioned it.

Obviously, both of us agree that Sullivan earned that honor, and Ali did not.

As far as I know, he was the first champion to allow the title to change hands with gloves. Because he insisted that's how the game would be played, after beating the bareknucklers at their own game. Gloves had existed for several generations before Sullivan. None of them created a gloved championship, because gloves were for amateurs and exhibition sparring.

No asterisk is called for.

I know that in actual reality, the world heavyweight title mandated gloves because Sullivan insisted on gloves.

Sure, it's possible somebody else does it differently. Or maybe the belt stays with Ryan, and boxing limps along as an illegal fringe sport in Boston and a couple other coastal cities. And all that sport fan revenue goes to competitor sports instead, of which there were several. Were other champions going to create the kind of national (and then worldwide) profile for MoQ boxing that Sullivan did? Well, none of them did.

It's not downplaying Ali's social significance to point out that the 60s/70s counterculture would have happened without him. We saw it happen across the world.

Certainly, it's nothing comparable to the level of downplaying going on to say that Sullivan was only known for having a mustache.

 

He's still huge today and Ali isn't the biggest sport icon of all time. Agree to disagree.