Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

Yeah, he was huge back then, not so much within the last 70 years. Ali has remained huge decades after his retirement and years after his death. He is possibly the biggest sports icon of all time.

 

I don't like Ali at all, and even I agree with what you said.

 

Sullivan fought in an era with horsehair gloves, an era where fights took place in bars, farms, etc. Lots of blatant wrestling and rough housing. Not sure how his boxing remotely gave rise to the boxers of Ali's era other than the implementation of gloves.

 

It was more than that, they had to hide the Kilrain fight from the police. the reason it was held in farms and other odd locations because it was outlaw. Can you image the buildup to the Fury Wilder 3 fight, but oh no, you cannot see it on live TV, and you had to go to a boat to see the fight with money and maybe a password to see the event, and hope the police does not break in and arrest you and the fighters on the spot? Sullivan helping to make the sport legal was perhaps the biggest influence of all time.

 

He's still huge today and Ali isn't the biggest sport icon of all time. Agree to disagree.

 

You basically couldn't be more popular than Sullivan during his era as a boxer. You can make a case that Ali is more popular world wide, but it wouldn't be possible during the 19th century.

 

Ok so why are people on this thread just glossing over what Ali did? He made big international fights popular and really helped usher in the era of live broadcast tv. He was the first boxer to truly self promote and basically sold his own fights with the gift of the gab. He took inspiration from wrestlers like gorgeous George to be the guy everyone wanted to see lose and put seats in butts. Ali did tons of things that boxers to this day follow.

 

You have zero evidence Sullivan is huge today. That's complete nonsense.

 

As I said, he's probably the only recognisable figure in sports history from the 19th century. That's huge, no matter how much you'd like to downgrade it.

 

And Jack Johnson did not in regards to self promote for the great white hope? Boxing started airing on tv in the 50's. The big fights were of course close circuit like some of Marciano title fights, And there where big international fights before Ali like Dempsey Firpo or George Carpenter. Dempsey was the first to hit a million gate when will only like 3 people in the world had a few million lol. Ali brought in the broadcast tv era.

 

A little bit of common sense would lead you to understand that I obviously don't think an athlete from a later era can beat the very first champion at being the first champion. That doesn't even make sense. Being the first champion in a sport doesn't automatically place you in a category of influence/popularity above everyone after you. It simply means you were born at the right time to become the first gloved champion.

I will need to see proof he was the first to do this. And even if he did, that's ONE thing he did that he has over Ali in terms of historical significance/influence on later generations. That feat alone doesn't blow everything else Ali did out of the water. So yes, an asterisk is absolutely necessary here since the claim you're making has yet to be proven and it wouldn't be a check mate claim regardless.

It really wouldn't shock me at all if people started campaigning to have gloves champions giving up their titles to gloves challengers. That's a pretty common sense approach and I'm honestly shocked that had to even be a discussion. The reason I'm saying it's possible it happens anyways is because of event such as Holmes vs Cobb which contributed to the reduction of rounds from 15 to 12 or Johnson helping pave the way for the breaking of the color line. All of these things happened organically and might have happened regardless given the trajectory of the sport.

Nowhere in my post did I say Ali was solely responsible for the boomer counter culture. Societal pressure was already building long before he threw a single punch.

My point was talking about his historical significance in the civil rights era and contributing to the social debate over warfare and race. No boxer alive or dead can hold a candle to Ali in these categories.

I never said Sullivan was only know for his moustache. I said the average person TODAY mainly recognizes him for his moustache and even those who do may not even know who he is. That is a fact.

 

Of course he was huge in the 19th century. He is NOT huge today. That's what you claimed.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't be shocked if 100 years from now people would still be talking about the rope a dope and shuffle. Those things have been firmly cemented in the minds of the American public. I doubt that changes unless boxing dies off or becomes a fringe sport.

No one outside hardcore boxing fans can name a single feat of Sullivan's in the ring or name one of his opponents.

 

You have no credibility and know nothing about boxing. Just a troll.

 

I'm not trying to insult you but I'm having a hard time reading this because of the way it's written.

I didn't say Ali was the first to engage in international fights. You guys keep putting words in my mouth. But Ali did truly feel more like a world champion than previous heavyweights who mostly fought in America. He fought in Europe, Africa, Japan, etc and fought contenders from many different backgrounds. Sullivan also drew the color line and that doesn't help his case in this discussion at all.

No boxer self promoted the way Ali did and Mayweather owes like half his business model to Ali.