Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

I think 140 years after Ali's fight with Holmes, he may be in the same place as Sullivan. A famous boxer in name, but not really knowing the feats to the common man. Ask the common man feats of in Ring of Dempsey or Jack Johnson and you may get a blank stare, history does that.

 

I can't imagine being bigger after 140 years. I doubt Ali would be much bigger in 2120 to be honest.

 

There are several comic books, movies, and tv shows that reference the rope a dope decades after Ali retired and people still know he's the one who started it. Same thing with the shuffle. The only way people will be clueless about who invented those techniques will be if boxing dies off or becomes a fringe sport that hardly anyone watches. Now that we have YouTube it'll be extremely difficult for people to be completely ignorant of Ali. It was already difficult given that he is talked about in high school and college textbooks to this day and is brought up during black history month.

 

Can you support your claim that Sullivan is still a well known and hugely popular figure TODAY? Yes or no?

 

And other champs like Sullivan or Johnson fought over seas in Europe. Ali had an edge because of TV, but these pre Ali fights did do well money wise for their day.

 

Been reading the back and forth.

There's a disingenuous argument that I feel is being had purely out of respect for the pioneer as opposed to a logical assessment of the differences.

Sullivan gets his credit for being a pioneer, moving boxing towards a more structured sport. In that way, highly influential. In terms of influence of not just boxers, but athletes and people all over the world, I cannot fathom how he is comparable to Ali.

How many boxers came up after him, looked to him as a role model? How many sportsmen; actors; entertainers and others cite Ali as an influence? His fight against America whilst his people weren't free at home, whether he was a puppet of Nation of Islam or not, has been proven right. His ring record is unmatched for wins versus quality of opponent at his weight division. He completely shook up the sport and inspired later generations of fighters to be front and centre, doing his own interviews, saying what he wants and how he feels, speaking on non-boxing matters without fear for reprecussions.

Ali was, at one time, one of the most famous and widely recognised human beings on the planet. Ultimately, Jesse Owens was a pioneer but Usain represents the evolution. At least, through biomechanics, with the same track, starting blocks and running spikes, Jesse has been shown to be within strides of Usain.

I don't always believe that newer equals to better, but here, I see this a bit like UFC. The Gracies dominated in the early years. Israel Adesanya would tear Royce apart - it's a different sport - I can give one credit and recognise that a later great is substantially greater. Sullivan, for my money, isn't the same conversation as Ali as an elite pugilist - the sport was so far changed that it does a disservice to Sullivan to match him up against anyone from Louis onwards, possibly even Tunney onwards.

 

He is huge for a historical figure. Probably more known than 95% of lineal champions.

 

And who reads old comics today from the 40's and back??? Or old BW movies?? How many non boxing fans knows who was the first to thrown the bolo punch??? Hell even Gene Tunney had a comic book about his rise and defeat of Dempsey. Dempsey has comics and movies that credit him with the Dempsey roll, it will be forgetting in 140 or so years.

 

This will not be answer until Ali's gen and the 2 gens after that past on. I mean we just had the great party of the FOTC fight, You know how big the Long Count fight on its 50th were with a big party with both Dempsey and Tunney(Alive at the time) were there cake and all.

 

Lmao you keep ignoring the question. Your claim suggested that random guys on the street would recognize Sullivan if you showed them a photo just like Ali. This is not remotely true. If this isn't what you meant then say that.

 

I'm not talking about "old" comics, I'm talking about RECENT comics, movies, and shows that reference Ali's rope a dope or shuffle.

-The Japanese boxing manga (comic) references the shuffle frequently and it's a very recent work of art.

-A Superman comic from around 2010-2012 reference the rope a dope. Superman used it to digest punches from the villain Mongol. Superman even mentions Ali indirectly by saying he got the idea from a "brilliant American pugilist".

-Manny Pacquiao uses the shuffle at the end of some rounds in relatively recent fights.

There are other shows and movies ive seen that mention Ali or the techniques he used but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I even used the shuffle myself on a guy who was talking trash and several people witnessing it immediately knew what it was and mentioned Ali by name.

 

My god you're being hard headed on purpose.

Sullivan becoming a boxing champion took hard work and dedication he gets credit for that. Being the "first" gloves boxing champion mostly boiled down to the luck of his brother certificate. It's not an accomplishment and literally any other heavyweight boxer could have been the first. The only thing he gets credit for is helping pioneer the gloved era. That's it. His historical sphere of influence on later generations of the sport outside of this is paper thin and you know it.

You still haven't even proven he was the first to pioneer this concept.

I'll check them out.

Gloved boxing already existed but it wasn't the standard for the champion to wear gloves and let the title change hands to another gloves boxer. YOUR words, not mine. He gets credit for using his influence to make that the norm but he didn't sit there starting the first gloved pro boxing commission single-handedly which is what you keep trying to imply.

And more importantly Alis influence on literally millions of people, both boxers and civilians alike, along with the counter culture movement itself cannot be understated.

 

They don't mention him by name, they made a look a like character who resembles him as a mentor to one of the boxers.

Guess whose referenced by name and actually appears multiple times in Baki...?

 

The huge gap, ignoring social influence/media and just focusing on boxing accomplishments, is, well their accomplishments.

Ali didn't draw the color line, beat everyone's asses for 2 decades, gold medal, 3x champion, ridiculous resume, and is the role model for tens of millions of boxers for decades. Invented the incredibly iconic rope a dope and shuffle techniques. Pioneered self promotion and huge globally significant fights. There's no comparison.

 

I didn't suggest that at any point of his career. I also think you overstate Ali's popularity. Maybe he's that popular in the US, but not necessarily in the rest of the world.