Why isn't John L Sullivan ranked above Ali?

Can you support your claim that Sullivan is still a well known and hugely popular figure TODAY? Yes or no?

 

And other champs like Sullivan or Johnson fought over seas in Europe. Ali had an edge because of TV, but these pre Ali fights did do well money wise for their day.

 

Been reading the back and forth.

There's a disingenuous argument that I feel is being had purely out of respect for the pioneer as opposed to a logical assessment of the differences.

Sullivan gets his credit for being a pioneer, moving boxing towards a more structured sport. In that way, highly influential. In terms of influence of not just boxers, but athletes and people all over the world, I cannot fathom how he is comparable to Ali.

How many boxers came up after him, looked to him as a role model? How many sportsmen; actors; entertainers and others cite Ali as an influence? His fight against America whilst his people weren't free at home, whether he was a puppet of Nation of Islam or not, has been proven right. His ring record is unmatched for wins versus quality of opponent at his weight division. He completely shook up the sport and inspired later generations of fighters to be front and centre, doing his own interviews, saying what he wants and how he feels, speaking on non-boxing matters without fear for reprecussions.

Ali was, at one time, one of the most famous and widely recognised human beings on the planet. Ultimately, Jesse Owens was a pioneer but Usain represents the evolution. At least, through biomechanics, with the same track, starting blocks and running spikes, Jesse has been shown to be within strides of Usain.

I don't always believe that newer equals to better, but here, I see this a bit like UFC. The Gracies dominated in the early years. Israel Adesanya would tear Royce apart - it's a different sport - I can give one credit and recognise that a later great is substantially greater. Sullivan, for my money, isn't the same conversation as Ali as an elite pugilist - the sport was so far changed that it does a disservice to Sullivan to match him up against anyone from Louis onwards, possibly even Tunney onwards.

 

He is huge for a historical figure. Probably more known than 95% of lineal champions.

 

Again, not so. It's not like you can randomly be born at the right time to be the first gloved heavyweight champion. You have to build the institution yourself. That's what makes it special.

My source is John L. Sullivan and His America. Additionally, lineages of the bareknuckle title -- the one Sullivan won from Ryan -- were contested under London Prize Ring Rules or Broughton's Rules. IIRC, Bob Mee's book also covers this.

Read Boxiana. Read Pugilistica. Read the Heenan/Sayers fight accounts. Professional boxing was done with bare knuckles.

Of course gloved boxing seems natural to you. You grew up in the world Sullivan built. The fact that you can't even understand why it took so long shows the extent of Sullivan's influence over the sport, since that certainly wasn't the attitude of his own era. You yourself are evidence of Sullivan's influence over the sport.

I agree. It was inevitable, Ali or no Ali. Although he did put a segregationist and anti-miscegenation spin on it that was probably unique to him and his religious group. The movement might have been a little different without that.

Okay, fair enough. In 70 more years, who knows how much of a memory of Ali will survive. How many 19th century athletes are household names these days? Ever heard of Donald Dinnie?

 

And who reads old comics today from the 40's and back??? Or old BW movies?? How many non boxing fans knows who was the first to thrown the bolo punch??? Hell even Gene Tunney had a comic book about his rise and defeat of Dempsey. Dempsey has comics and movies that credit him with the Dempsey roll, it will be forgetting in 140 or so years.

 

Saying you wouldn't be surprised by something happening 70 years in the future isn't the same as it happening. Human beings are remarkably bad at predicting events over long timescales. I'm sure there were people in the 1940s who couldn't imagine Sullivan being forgotten.

 

This will not be answer until Ali's gen and the 2 gens after that past on. I mean we just had the great party of the FOTC fight, You know how big the Long Count fight on its 50th were with a big party with both Dempsey and Tunney(Alive at the time) were there cake and all.

 

Sullivan appeared in media as well -- quite a bit of it, by the primitive standards of his era and the ones that came after.

Will YouTube footage and textbooks still be the gold standard for media in the year 2092? I kind of doubt it.

In general, I think we are on firmer footing if we consider what we actually have. 60-odd years after their respective title wins, both guys remained important in the public consciousness (Ali probably moreso.) One of them codified pretty much the entire sport. The other was influential socially in the Civil Rights era, and made important contributions to the way fights are marketed. I don't really see this huge gap that makes comparing their respective influences laughable.

 

Lmao you keep ignoring the question. Your claim suggested that random guys on the street would recognize Sullivan if you showed them a photo just like Ali. This is not remotely true. If this isn't what you meant then say that.

 

Quite so, yes.

 

I'm not talking about "old" comics, I'm talking about RECENT comics, movies, and shows that reference Ali's rope a dope or shuffle.

-The Japanese boxing manga (comic) references the shuffle frequently and it's a very recent work of art.

-A Superman comic from around 2010-2012 reference the rope a dope. Superman used it to digest punches from the villain Mongol. Superman even mentions Ali indirectly by saying he got the idea from a "brilliant American pugilist".

-Manny Pacquiao uses the shuffle at the end of some rounds in relatively recent fights.

There are other shows and movies ive seen that mention Ali or the techniques he used but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I even used the shuffle myself on a guy who was talking trash and several people witnessing it immediately knew what it was and mentioned Ali by name.

 

Since you mentioned manga...out of a misplaced sense of curiosity, I just googled manga containing John L. Sullivan. He apparently shows up by name in a manga called Baki the Grappler, which Wikipedia describes as one of the bestselling manga of all time (with tie in anime, video games, etc.)

 

My god you're being hard headed on purpose.

Sullivan becoming a boxing champion took hard work and dedication he gets credit for that. Being the "first" gloves boxing champion mostly boiled down to the luck of his brother certificate. It's not an accomplishment and literally any other heavyweight boxer could have been the first. The only thing he gets credit for is helping pioneer the gloved era. That's it. His historical sphere of influence on later generations of the sport outside of this is paper thin and you know it.

You still haven't even proven he was the first to pioneer this concept.

I'll check them out.

Gloved boxing already existed but it wasn't the standard for the champion to wear gloves and let the title change hands to another gloves boxer. YOUR words, not mine. He gets credit for using his influence to make that the norm but he didn't sit there starting the first gloved pro boxing commission single-handedly which is what you keep trying to imply.

And more importantly Alis influence on literally millions of people, both boxers and civilians alike, along with the counter culture movement itself cannot be understated.

 

They don't mention him by name, they made a look a like character who resembles him as a mentor to one of the boxers.

Guess whose referenced by name and actually appears multiple times in Baki...?