why joe frazier beats lennox lewis

Frazier did not win a round in either Foreman fight all this **** about new strategy, fact is Frazier could only fight ONE way ,coming forward.
He has ONE great win over a man coming back who was unsure of his stamina ,and had engaged in only 18 rds of boxing in 3 1/2 years,an active Ali spanked his arse TWICE. Christ you lot bring out more excuses for Smokin Joe than Jimmy Young's nuthugging ball lickers do for that loser.
Frazier beat one great fighter then degraded his title fighting 2 stiffs.The only heavy duty puncher he faced, used him as a yo yo.In Lewis he would be facing another heavy duty puncher,with the same result imo.He gets sparked.

 

Maybe he could only excel fighting coming forward, but in some fights he attempted to fight zig-zagging in and out more. In the first Foreman fight he was like a train on tracks.
He attempted more lateral movement and variety in 1976, a bit more cautious in his approach, precisely because he knew coming in like a train on a straight track was suicide.
Or are you saying his mode of attack was exactly the same as in Jamaica ?

^ the first sentence in the above paragraph is full of excuses for Ali losing, so I won't take the second sentence too seriously.

 

As for Frazier post-FOTC, it's clear he was gradually slipping, but I don't think it's as much that he lost ability in absolute terms as that he became an on and off fighter, while before he had been very consistent. This is absolutely not surprising for a fighter that's reached his absolute pinnacle, both professionally and ability-wise.

Frazier had mostly lack-luster perfomances after FOTC, but showed in Quarry II and the two remaining fights against Ali that he still really could turn it on when totally focussed on the task at hand. But he was never quite the same again, no. Don't think that made more than 1 or 2 rounds difference against Foreman, though.

 

Excellent post.

 

I like Frazier but Lewis has proven time and time again that he can defend well against left hookers and he did so with Morrison, Tua and a very faded Tyson.

Lewis has the size, skill and power to ensure that Frazier doesn't make it a war of attrition. I tend to believe that Lewis would pummel him with vicious uppercuts on his way in and his jab would be a major factor.

 

Tyson was old and shot, and the rest of the guys are hardly dynamic come foward, small target, aggressive fighting machines.

 

The result was exactly the same, Frazier just prolonged the inevitable,
he won NOTHING. Ali was coming into the fight against the best heavyweight active' with 18rds under his belt in 3 1/2 years , he had looked bad against Bonavena ,and the Quarry fight was inconclusive because it ended prematurely there is a difference between facts, and excuses.Ali needed more ring activity before facing Frazier yet he gave him hell and, according to all you Frazier apologists, finished Frazier at 29 years old.Prime for prime Ali would have stopped Frazier and there would have been no trilogy.Frazier is 1 win 4 losses over the two great heavyweights he fought, if he got complacent and out of shape and picked easy touches as he surely did, thats his fault At least when Ali came unstuck he was past his prime and he avenged his defeats, buckling down and getting into shape.Lewis knocks Frazier out.

 

He was trying to get George into deep water to drown him, and couldn't manage it. That he was able to last as long as he did, moving the way he was at a career high 224-1/2 raises some real questions about whether the lighter and more mobile Frazier of 1969 might have succeeded in a prime for prime rematch with Foreman. (George always would have been a tough proposition in a first time encounter, however, Frazier did survive that crisis in Bonavena I, and got out of a number of earlier tight spots in the Foreman rematch. Joe certainly improved on his performance from Bonavena I to Bonavena II, and JQ II was a masterpiece with those surprising right hands, even if Jerry was completely shot.)

It's been argued that there also might not have been a trilogy if Tony Perez had refereed round two of Ali-Frazier II competently. However, I don't believe Ali would have stopped Joe if Muhammad had defended the title against Smoke in late '67, '68, '69 or '70. To me, the irony of Manila is that Ali registered a stoppage precisely because he was past his peak, somewhat under trained and overweight, no longer having the legs to dance consistently for 15 rounds. Add to that Carlos Padilla's refusal to let Muhammad yank on the back of Joe's neck like Perez had, and Ali had no choice but to fight it out. At his peak, he would have been sticking and running, and produced a result more reminiscent of his first match with Chuvalo, albeit much closer and faster paced, hectic for him, and frustrating for Smoke.

 

The notion that Quarry was shot for his rematch with Joe is pure nonsense. Joe had lost a tad speed since their first fight, but that wasn't very important since Jerry wasn't very hard to chase down. More importantly was that Joe picked his shots better and put his right hand into play much better than before. I know that many do what they can to deny this, but this was a more mature and all in all superior showing by Frazier compared to their first one. It wasn't about Quarry, it was about Frazier.

I think he slowed down just another tiny bit for Manilla, though. But Quarry II is without a doubt one of his top 5 perfomances. He makes just about every shot count.

 

Big Frazier fan here, I'm not sure that Quarry II was one of Joe's best five performances. Sure, he was great that night and utilized the right hand well, but he was not the same fighter he was years earlier. Neither, of course, was Jerry. Maybe from the standpoint of getting the most of how much he had left, then I could see it as a Top 5. Manila would also qualify on that basis.

Off the top of my head, some of the more impressive Frazier outings where he was near his best would be....

Quarry I
The FOTC
Ellis I
Foster
Ramos (love this fight!)
Chuvalo
The Doug Jones fight was supposed to have been an impressive knockout, but I've never the film of this fight. It may not exist.

I've always thought Joe's short actual peak was in that '69-'70 period.

 

Politely disagree with you a McVey, but I do agree that Frazier's greatest strength is coming forward and engaging his opponent. I look at his fight with Chuvalo, how he stayed low and on the inside, didn't stand and trade with George, moved his feet and punched on the angles.

Against Foreman, everyone knows Frazier WASN'T shot, but he WASN'T the same hungry, explosive fighter of the late 60's that concentrated solely on beating Ali. Certainly wasn't in the same shape. You'd be blind if you think he was. Joe's pride, heart and ego kept telling him to get up and go straight back at Foreman which is the way he fought, you are absolutely right. George did have some help from Mercante who allowed the pushing and shoving of Joe's shoulders to create punching room which aren't legal tactics. The only way a fighter can get separation from the opponent is to punch or move, not grab the shoulders and shove away which Foreman got a way with against other fighters too.

I think people tend to forget how good Frazier was going to the body and just how tough Ali really was. Ali took beatings from Frazier to the body, especially in the FOTC and Lewis was miles slower than Ali. I can't see how Frazier wouldn't be able to catch Lewis and pound his body on the inside. Lewis is a big target that doesn't have the killer, early aggression like Foreman.

The pre-FOTC to FOTC conditioned Frazier would be one hell of an opponent for any heavyweight in the history of the sport. Even Foreman. Frazier was faster and would have countered those big, wild winging shots that Foreman threw in 73. In 76, Foreman knew that Frazier would be looking for the uppercut, which is why he fought a much more disciplined fight with his jab. In fact, I believe the Foreman that fought Frazier in 76 was a calculated finisher who timed himself a lot better. He didn't leave himself open like he did in 73 and Joe was able to tag him with some good shots and he made Foreman miss badly in the early rounds. The facts says Foreman beat Joe Frazier twice, seven rounds, eight knockdowns in two fights. Who knows how the fight against Foreman would have transpired had Frazier worked his ass in training and didn't party around in Jamaica like Futch said he did. Frazier didn't believe Foreman to be a danger to his title which is why he was so lackadaisical against him.

I think Lewis definitely has the potential to stop Frazier early, but I'd bet on prime Joe getting to Lewis' body, hurting him in the middle rounds after being knocked down himself and stopping Lennox.

 

Interesting match up here. I think Lewis is a little under-rated here, as say what you want about his, at times, cautious style, he nearly always got the job done against all different types of fighters. However, he never faced someone as good as a prime Frazier, as Holyfield and Tyson were past their best when he defeated them.

I think taking Lewis at his absolute best in all facets of his game he would win, as he displayed the abilty to get a quick ko, fight at distance with a reasonable jab and a good uppercut, could fight on the inside, use roughouse tactics and his size and strength, and also took big shots from guys like Vitali and Briggs. He would probably need to draw on every ounce of this skillset to beat Frazier though! 60-40% in favour for Lewis in this match up for me.

 

He was fat and completely shot (even you might admit he was past his prime by 1976, no ?) and managed to avoid getting knocked down for a few rounds, because of a different approach.
Who's saying he won anything ?
The point is, it showed he could fight a smarter fight when he respected the opponent's ability to KO him.

Ali only faced Bonavena once in his career, so it's hard to say how he should have looked against him. Bonavena made several fighters look bad.

We all know about Ali's layoff but he had fought 18 rounds in 6 months, he was beating top fighters.

When Ali beat Foreman and Liston, they were suffering from a severe lack of rounds too.

Ali was great.

I don't think he would have stopped Frazier, prime for prime.

Oh, I see, this is some sort of Ali v Frazier feud thing.
If not, I'm not sure of the relevance of the comparison. We all know Ali was great. If you want to say Frazier wasn't that great, and degrade his win over Ali, that's your opinion - but I disagreee.

Anyway, Ali didn't really buckle down and get into shape, he hung around too long getting disputed decisions, fighting bums, turning up fat, losing to Neon Leon, avoiding the top fighters for the last 2 or 3 years of his reign and messing around in wrestling matches.

Maybe.

 

I doubt Frazier would ever step into the same ring with a noted puncher like Lennox Lewis.But if they did manage to drag him in there,Lewis would literally knock his head off.Frazier's lack of height and reach,coupled with his lack of chin and inability to evade or block an uppercut,would lead to a violent demise against a fighter noted for his uppercut and power.




Lewis is simply too classy,too good of a boxer and puncher for the limited,one-dimensional,chinny Joe Frazier.Lewis always shut down and destroyed left-hook artists.It was always the straight right that he was most susceptible to.

 

Are you sure you're not over-your-head, because it sure feels nice?

Lewis too classy? I'll give you a little bit of that later on in his career. IMO he was a gentleman of the sport in his mid to late 30s, especially by the way he handled a past prime Tyson.

I used to be one that criticized Lennox for not having the killer instinct or being too unspectacular. Lennox won fights later in his career by making the opponent quit rather than knocking them out. He was a better boxer later on in his career, but he didn't face the prime Tyson of the mid to late 80's and you're underestimating Frazier as a fighter by calling him limited and one dimensional. I'm not calling you sillly but believing that stuff about Joe IS.